Enough power?

[solderdude]

Lovely then I can then buy the leak 130 and be sure that has enough power to drive my speakers, since the denon does just fine

When it fits in better with your interior ... sure. You can buy any amp you want that is over 25W or so.

You should not do it for the following reasons:

What I have heard with amps is that they need to be pushed hard to stay on their linear range.

That I might need much more power to keep the new amplifier "relaxed"

This is the reason where I reported that L listen to the volume of 25/60 level which shows that the mini device is already pushed quite a bit.

You obviously never seem to need more power than you have now (30W) so any amp between 30W and 150W will be fine.
None of these amps are 'pushed' too much nor will they be in your case it seems nor do amps feel the need to be 'relaxed'

The volume control position says absolutely nothing about the actual momentary output power nor how close that is to the clipping point.

The difference between 30W and 45W seems a lot but due to the way the hearing (and electronics) work is basically the same thing.

It appears that in your case 30W is enough you don't need more power, the amp you currently have does not seem to be 'stressed' in any way from a technical viewpoint.
You can change amps simply because you want to for whatever reasons you can think of.
Being afraid of 'stressing' the amp you currently have is not a valid reason because it does not appear to be used that way otherwise you would hear worsened sound quality.

 

[alaios]

When it fits in better with your interior ... sure. You can buy any amp you want that is over 25W or so.

You should not do it for the following reasons:






You obviously never seem to need more power than you have now (30W) so any amp between 30W and 150W will be fine.
None of these amps are 'pushed' too much nor will they be in your case it seems nor do amps feel the need to be 'relaxed'

The volume control position says absolutely nothing about the actual momentary output power nor how close that is to the clipping point.

The difference between 30W and 45W seems a lot but due to the way the hearing (and electronics) work is basically the same thing.

thanks a lot for making it that clear. I am asking here since people are always say you need more power in reserve in case this or in case that in the audio track but I did not know how to quantify it really :/

 

[LTig]

Lovely then I can then buy the leak 130 and be sure that has enough power to drive my speakers, since the denon does just fine

If the Denon does fine you do not need a new amp at all.

 

[alaios]

yes that is my experience that is just fine. Although people in the past were commenting that denon is non 30 watts as denon does not provide enough info on their specs.
Then if you look in the forums there is always the discussion for amplifiers needing to have more and more power. Then if we look at the market the 45watts are on the lower end if not the minimum one could find on amplifiers

 

[solderdude]

thanks a lot for making it that clear. I am asking here since people are always say you need more power in reserve in case this or in case that in the audio track but I did not know how to quantify it really :/

You only need (considerably as in factors more) power IF you want to go much louder than you are currently doing. When you have no desire to go much louder than you do now there is no reason to do so.

 

[alaios]

okay and the needed leeway is not needed since we assume that the amplifier can handle that.
Thanks for shocking me positively there is a discussion out there that more is better

 

[solderdude]

since we assume that the amplifier can handle that.

Yep, that assumption is made because you do not hear 'worsening' of the sound quality at the levels you are using. This would indicate you are not near clipping levels.
Assuming you can still turn up the volume a little higher and still do not perceive 'degradation' of the sound quality.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Lovely then I can then buy the leak 130 and be sure that has enough power to drive my speakers, since the denon does just fine

As long as you are fully aware, now, that the position of the volume control means absolutely nothing in terms of how loud an amplifier sounds. A different amp may have more power but it may have less end-to-end gain, or the volume control may have a different ratio of position.

What this might mean is that for the same sound level, your new, more powerful amplifier may need the volume control to be further clockwise, or possibly less far round. It doesn't make any difference to the sound, but it spooks some buyers who say "I bought this more powerful amplifier, but I have to crank the volume control higher".

 

[Jun Tillocies]

Cool thread, thanks to OP for bringing this up.

How much louder do you want to play ?

When you want 3dB louder you will need 2x60W
When you want 6dB louder you will need 2x120W
When you want 10dB louder (a doubling of how loud you can go now) you will need a 2x300W amp

This makes sense. But, it's common for some people to recommend high-wattage amps without referring to desired listening volume. And I'd like to understand why.

For instance, Amir wrote this in his review of my speakers (Elac DBR62):

However, note the area I have circled. Impedance is high at about 8 ohms but the phase angle is quite acute at nearly 50 degrees. This means the speaker will ask for current when the output voltage is very low. So you better have a beefy amplifier to drive this speaker.

He has circled an area is at 110 Hz (corresponding to A2 on the piano).

What does he mean here? Could a low-power amplifier actually start clipping at 110 Hz driving DBR62s at normal listening levels in a normal-size living room?

Link: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-debut-reference-dbr-62-speaker-review.12232/

 

[antcollinet]

Lovely then I can then buy the leak 130 and be sure that has enough power to drive my speakers, since the denon does just fine

Before you do - decide what you want to achieve from that. If you just want a nice looking amp, then fine. If it has features you need that are not available on the Denon - then fine.

If you are expecting it to give your better sound quality - then think again - it won't make any significant difference.

 

[voodooless]

people are always say you need more power

 

[MaxwellsEq]

What does he mean here? Could a low-power amplifier actually start clipping at 110 Hz driving DBR62s at normal listening levels in a normal-size living room

What's happening here is that the speaker load is awkward. If you are just driving a resistor of 4 or 8 Ohms, the voltage swing needed to send the signal and the current demand are in phase: when one peaks, so does the other.

For capacitative loads (electrostatics) or very inductive loads, the voltage and current are out of phase which means you can't just multiply current and voltage to get watts. More current is demanded than you would necessarily expect. The same thing happens for speakers with very low impedances.

The upshot is, for the same "power": you need better heatsinks, and/or power supplies and transistors which can cope with the current demand. This doesn't necessarily mean it has more power, but it does mean it is less likely to overheat.

Obviously a more powerful amplifier will normally be able to cope better at the same level as a less powerful amplifier with a lot of heat extraction.

 

[alaios]

Before you do - decide what you want to achieve from that. If you just want a nice looking amp, then fine. If it has features you need that are not available on the Denon - then fine.

If you are expecting it to give your better sound quality - then think again - it won't make any significant difference.

very good point. I would assume that a dedicated power amplifier that costs 800euros /USD will make the system sound much better that all in one device from denon that has a cdplayer and costs 350 euros with a pair of speakers

 

[voodooless]

very good point. I would assume that a dedicated power amplifier that costs 800euros /USD will make the system sound much better that all in one device from denon that has a cdplayer and costs 350 euros with a pair of speakers

@antcollinet said:

If you are expecting it to give your better sound quality - then think again - it won't make any significant difference.

So.. think again

The thing that gives you better sound quality is the speakers. Spend money on that, not on amps.

 

[antcollinet]

very good point. I would assume that a dedicated power amplifier that costs 800euros /USD will make the system sound much better that all in one device from denon that has a cdplayer and costs 350 euros with a pair of speakers

Not necessarily. Unless the cheaper amp is distorting significantly or has high noise (few modern amps do either of these and certainly not the Denon) then there will be little to no audible difference.

A dedicated expensive power amp can give you more power allowing you to play at higher levels without clipping distortion. This is about the only area sound will be significanlty impacted.

Oher than that - only minor and probably inaudible differences.

Bear in mind that the big brands making entry level amps have huge benefits from economies of scale to keep their costs low.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

a dedicated power amplifier that costs 800euros /USD will make the system sound much better that all in one device from

It will not "sound much better".

It might sound slightly different and it may allow you to play louder before it clips. Both of these you may consider an audible improvement (our brains seem to like louder over quieter). But it will not be much better. It might be a very tiny bit better.

 

[voodooless]

Bear in mind that the big brands making entry level amps have huge benefits from economies of scale to keep their costs low.

Also years of incremental improvements to get the most out of simple and cheap amp designs. Just look at the amp boards in a Denon AVR. Cheap AliExpress amp boards look like luxury compared to these abominations So watch out, looks can be deceiving

it may allow you to play louder before it clips.

So will a higher efficiency speaker for that matter. You may get better sound and more volume with one stroke

 

[Willem]

In my personal experience the power demands of dynamic music such as the classical symphonic repertoire are much larger than many people realize, particularly if in a larger room. For years my power amplifier was a 2x45 watt Quad 303, driving Quad ESL 57 speakers in a medium sized room in an apartment. When we moved to a rather bigger detached house the amplifier seemed a bit strained, but the speakers would not tolerate more power. For the first few years in the big house money was tight, but after a few years I decided to upgrade the speakers to the modern Quad 2805s. That was a real upgrade indeed, but I discovered that the new speakers were somewhat less efficient. So the amplifier sounded a bit more strained/harsh when playing dynamic music at somewhat realistic levels. The next step was to replace the Quad 303 with a refurbished 2x140 watt Quad 606-2. That produced a cleaner sound at higher levels (not so at lower levels). My next step was to add first one, and then more subwoofers, but still connected at speaker level. This added extension, but did not give more headroom. That headroom only came when I connected the subs at line level and added a high pass filter for the power amplifier and main speakers. The sound is now clean up to pretty high levels - this system benefits from a total of 1500 watt.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

In my personal experience the power demands of dynamic music such as the classical symphonic repertoire are much larger than many people realize, particularly if in a larger room.

I'm absolutely certain that many amplifier clips without people noticing. And yes, dynamic music like your example can be demanding. So can EDM with a lot of bass.

I realised that I was clipping my 2x340 W @ 8 ohm PA amp while listening to certain live recordings. And sure, it was loud, but totally unexpected as my speakers then were slim-line towers. The efficiency of those must have been much lower than advertised. That's also something to keep in mind when doing those "how much power do I need" calculations online.

 

[alaios]

Not necessarily. Unless the cheaper amp is distorting significantly or has high noise (few modern amps do either of these and certainly not the Denon) then there will be little to no audible difference.

A dedicated expensive power amp can give you more power allowing you to play at higher levels without clipping distortion. This is about the only area sound will be significanlty impacted.

Oher than that - only minor and probably inaudible differences.

Bear in mind that the big brands making entry level amps have huge benefits from economies of scale to keep their costs low.

okay then why one would spend 1k on amplifier to upgrade a 0.3 k amplifier? Because is considered a normal upgrade path on buying better and better amplifiers