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DT 770 Pro EQ According To Oratory1990 BEST Harman Settings - Why does my curve not look like Oratorys?

audiofilet

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@audiofilet Actually the OP is using the Parametric EQ in the first post (where he thinks the curve does not look like Oratory's one), then in post #4 he goes for the GraphicEQ which it is a worse solution (resolution wise) but does the job done anyway.
ParametricEQ is the preferred solution if you don't have the FIR available (which solves phase issues also if I recall but I may be wrong) or you don't know how to make one and you can use more resolution to have fine tuning of the curves but usually 16/32K is fine (for example that GraphicEQ you posted has only 127 points, the 48kHz FIR is usually 100ms/4800 samples).
Dude, it's even explained on the page.
"Fixed band eq is more commonly known as graphic equalizer but in order not to confuse with EqualizerAPO GraphicEQ it is called like that in this project." https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq#usage

It's true though, Parametric EQ is superior because it can control the bandwidth. On a graphicEQ it's fixed.

There is nothing relating to FIR on that github page you linked, please provide the exact link for the DT 770s.
 
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zermak

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Dude, it's even explained on the page.
"Fixed band eq is more commonly known as graphic equalizer but in order not to confuse with EqualizerAPO GraphicEQ it is called like that in this project." https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq#usage

It's true though, Parametric EQ is superior because it can control the bandwidth. On a graphicEQ it's fixed.

There is nothing relating to FIR on that github page you linked, please provide the exact link for the DT 770s.
I am trying to help so be polite, thank you.
Maybe the description is like that but actually the fixed band EQ is something else. You can look up yourself in the github site itself. Each fixed band EQ has a Q of 1.41, different from the parametric EQ which uses variable Qs. And again the Graphic EQ is something different from both. It applies and gain/loss to a specific frequency and like I showed you, in your case, it is limited to 120-something parameters.
The FIR is in each page of the AutoEQ, listed on top in the headphone/download section; you'll find wav files for 44.1kHz and 48kHz sample rates. Anyway I put direct links to each file if you are referring to the DT 770 250 Ohm version.
 

audiofilet

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I am trying to help so be polite, thank you.
Maybe the description is like that but actually the fixed band EQ is something else. You can look up yourself in the github site itself. Each fixed band EQ has a Q of 1.41, different from the parametric EQ which uses variable Qs. And again the Graphic EQ is something different from both. It applies and gain/loss to a specific frequency and like I showed you, in your case, it is limited to 120-something parameters.
The FIR is in each page of the AutoEQ, listed on top in the headphone/download section; you'll find wav files for 44.1kHz and 48kHz sample rates. Anyway I put direct links to each file if you are referring to the DT 770 250 Ohm version.
Me too, no problem. Here in the U.S calling someone "dude" is just a casual way to address a person, especially in Cali where I'm from lol. It's not meant to be rude or impolite.

Thanks for the link to the FIR filter, I've never actually used one of those. How would you go about applying that in APO? After a quick google search it appears the .wav needs to be converted to a filter.
 

zermak

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Me too, no problem. Here in the U.S calling someone "dude" is just a casual way to address a person, especially in Cali where I'm from lol. It's not meant to be rude or impolite.

Thanks for the link to the FIR filter, I've never actually used one of those. How would you go about applying that in APO? After a quick google search it appears the .wav needs to be converted to a filter.
Alright :) I am not American nor English native so I am not used to that and it sounds rude over here but all good.

About the FIR filter you can load it in EqualizerAPO with the Advanced filter's menu and then adding a Convolution (Convolution with impulse response) filter. It will let you browse through your PC what wav file to load. Important: it only works if the sample rate of the FIR is the same as the sample rate set in Windows through the advanced sound options' menu.
 
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A

alphachannel

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Wow thanks guys for all the great information!

So I learned now that the GraphicEQ settings I posted before are not recommended.

Should I use the Parametric EQ from Oratory, but with lower gain at those critical frequencies that would otherwise cause me discomfort, or use the FIR .wav file?

I looked up FIR vs. Parametric EQ and pretty much everybody agrees that FIR is superior.

But if it were, @solderdude would have recommended it. I consider him one of the big ones on here and will always listen to what he has to say.
 

audiofilet

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I checked out the FIR filter and it's definitely easier to apply. All you have to do is import the file and everything is ready to go. But it's a little more difficult to edit it.

You can download the the FIR filter for the DT 770 PRO 250 Ohm here:

From a sound perspective I'd say it sounds identical to the Parametric EQ from Oratory. Nothing grossly distinctive, at least.
Since you probably won't be able to edit this, I'd say stick with the Parametric one and adjust those higher frequencies that cause you pain.
 

ADU

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Couple thoughts...

Jaakko's AutoEQ settings are based on a +4 dB bass boost, rather then the +6 recommend in the Harman curve. So his settings will reduce the bass a bit, which some may like, and some may not. (That is mostly to accommodate the open-back headphone users.) Imo, both Jaakko's and Oratory's settings are also a bit too forward in the ~1.5 to 2k range to be comfortable to my ears. And probably also a bit more rolled off in the very high frequencies than is necessary (which is also based on Harman).

I have the 250-ohm DT-770's, and use them on a daily basis. And one fairly easy solution to fix their brightness is to apply a simple slope function, using a Variable Graphic EQ in Equalizer APO's Configuration Editor. This won't really fix all the unevenness in the higher frequencies, but at least it will make the overall tonal balance of the headphones somewhat better, and more pleasing. (Though it will also dial up the sub-bass possibly a bit too much.) :)

An Example:

GraphicEQ: 20 0; 20000 -5

This creates a variable graphic EQ with just two points at 20 Hz and 20000 Hz, that should look something like this...

5DBSLOPE.jpg


You can actually set the two points in the slope to whatever frequencies you want. But I recommend keeping them close to the above 20 and 20000 Hz values (which are based on the normal human hearing range) for convenience. And you should go no higher in frequency for the 2nd point than the Nyquist frequency, which is 1/2 your audio device's sample rate.

If your audio device's sample rate is 44.1 kHz, for example, that means you can potentially set the frequency of the 2nd point as high as 22050 Hz, but no higher. If the sample rate is 48 kHz (which is what I use, since I listen to alot of YouTube music videos), then you could potentially set the 2nd point as high as 24000 Hz. 20000 Hz is high enough for me though, because my high frequency hearing taps out in the mid-teens, kHz-wise.

If you currently have the bit depth on your audio device set to 16-bit, you should probably also increase that to 24-bit for better resampling of the volume changes with the EQ.

Use the volume control on your amp to adjust the overall volume level on the headphones. And adjust the steepness of the slope in the above Graphic EQ, by selecting the 2nd point at the higher frequency with a drag-box (right-click somewhere near the 2nd point, and drag a box around the point to select it, while holding down the right mouse button). And then moving that point up and down in 1 dB steps with the up/down arrow keys on your keyboard, until it sounds right to you... Very easy.

No Preamp setting is required for this, btw, since you should only be reducing the volume at the higher frequencies for the DT-770. And not actually increasing it anywhere with this approach.
 
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ADU

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I'm just wondering why my graph in APO looks nothing like the one on Oratory's page?
View attachment 157665

You can stretch the vertical axis of the Analysis Panel graph in Equalizer APO's Configuration Editor by simply moving your mouse pointer over the dB scale on the lefthand side of the graph, and then spinning your mouse wheel up or down.

If you have your mouse over any part of the graphing area in the Analysis Panel, and spin the mouse wheel there, that will zoom the graph in and out.
 

ADU

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Reedited my post above explaining how to create the slope EQ, to hopefully make things a little clearer.
 

audiofilet

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Couple thoughts...

Jaakko's AutoEQ settings are based on a +4 dB bass boost, rather then the +6 recommend in the Harman curve. So his settings will reduce the bass a bit, which some may like, and some may not. (That is mostly to accommodate the open-back headphone users.) Imo, both Jaakko's and Oratory's settings are also a bit too forward in the ~1.5 to 2k range to be comfortable to my ears. And probably also a bit more rolled off in the very high frequencies than is necessary (which is also based on Harman).

I have the 250-ohm DT-770's, and use them on a daily basis. And one fairly easy solution to fix their brightness is to apply a simple slope function, using a Variable Graphic EQ in Equalizer APO's Configuration Editor. This won't really fix all the unevenness in the higher frequencies, but at least it will make the overall tonal balance of the headphones somewhat better, and more pleasing. (Though it will also dial up the sub-bass possibly a bit too much.) :)

An Example:

GraphicEQ: 20 0; 20000 -5

This creates a variable graphic EQ with just two points at 20 Hz and 20000 Hz, that should look something like this...

View attachment 158260

You can actually set the two points in the slope to whatever frequencies you want. But I recommend keeping them close to the above 20 and 20000 Hz values (which are based on the normal human hearing range) for convenience. And you should go no higher in frequency for the 2nd point than the Nyquist frequency, which is 1/2 your audio device's sample rate.

If your audio device's sample rate is 44.1 kHz, for example, that means you can potentially set the frequency of the 2nd point as high as 22050 Hz, but no higher. If the sample rate is 48 kHz (which is what I use, since I listen to alot of YouTube music videos), then you could potentially set the 2nd point as high as 24000 Hz. 20000 Hz is high enough for me though, because my high frequency hearing taps out in the mid-teens, kHz-wise.

If you currently have the bit depth on your audio device set to 16-bit, you should probably also increase that to 24-bit for better resampling of the volume changes with the EQ.

Use the volume control on your amp to adjust the overall volume level on the headphones. And adjust the steepness of the slope in the above Graphic EQ, by selecting the 2nd point at the higher frequency with a drag-box (right-click somewhere near the 2nd point, and drag a box around the point to select it, while holding down the right mouse button). And then moving that point up and down in 1 dB steps with the up/down arrow keys on your keyboard, until it sounds right to you... Very easy.

No Preamp setting is required for this, btw, since you should only be reducing the volume at the higher frequencies for the DT-770. And not actually increasing it anywhere with this approach.
Yeah, Oratory and Jako both drop the bass to much, I agree. 20hz - 40hz is not that important, but 50hz - 80hz, that's where the boom lives. You want at least a good +5 throughout that range, especially with the DT770s, since they aren't very bassy to begin with.

Your example is very interesting.
I've tried the DT 770s 250 & 600 Ohm versions before, and with both I immediately realized that extreme brightness in the upper frequencies. It gets uncomfortable very quickly.

This -5 drop from 20 - 2000 would definitely eliminate that, but what about your midrange? Bass will also be a bit anemic.

The problem frequencies with thie headphones are at ~6000hz and ~1300hz.

You can look at any frequency response curve and instantly recognize that those two just have insane gain, for no apparent reason. Some reviewers even measured the ~6000hz gain at almost 12db, which is just absolutely mindboggling.

beyerdynamic-dt770-pro-80-ohm-frequency-response-studio.jpg
 

ADU

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Thank you for the above reply and your interest, audiofilet.

I have used both the 80 and 250 ohm versions of the DT-770. And they are similar, but not identical in frequency response. When it comes to the frequency response of these headphones though, there is almost nothing (imho) which is very straighforward about either one of them.

If you've been following some of the recent discussions on this board regarding the Harman target, and potential target response curves for the new HBK 5128 HATS in-ear measurement system (which is incidentally what was used to create the SoundGuys 80-ohm DT-770 plot posted above), then you'll also know that we still don't have a really conclusive idea of what a neutral headphone's response should look or sound like either. Particularly in the higher frequency ranges, but also in the lower frequencies as well. As indicated by many of the comments in this topic, this is (regrettably) a much more complicated subject than it seems at first glance. Which is only made more difficult by the fact that the DT-770's measured responses can be so changeable, simply based on how much wear and compression there is on the headphone's earpads. So finding some better clarity on all of the above (esp. with these HPs) can be somewhat of a challenge.

This is a diffuse field compensated graph of the 250-ohm DT-770, for example, which shows just the difference in its measured response with both new (red) and worn (blue) earpads. And there appears to be almost a 5 dB difference in the bass between the two. There are some less severe looking differences in the treble. But there could also be some important changes that should possibly be factored in in that range as well.

DT-770 FRESH AND WORN.jpg


In this other topic that I started not too long ago, solderdude suggested using a bass shelf, adjusted by ear, to compensate for the above differences, which is probably not such a bad idea...


I'm not sure if that will go quite far enough though, given some of the other issues in the treble and upper mids on these headphone like you've described above. So this is another reason I've been trying to come up with some other ideas or approaches to EQ-ing the DT-770 that can also involve both the information from graphs, and also some degree of feedback from your own listening. Because I think both can be important and helpful in achieving some better results with this particular headphone.
 
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ADU

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The issues with some of the unevenness in the treble is also something which I'm still trying to sort out. And find some better ways to address.

In addition to my own listening tests, one of the other things I will look at to try to get a somewhat better handle on that are the differences between the DT-770's frequency response, and the responses of various of other headphones which could potentially have a more neutral response in the bass, treble and midrange frequencies. Which might possibly look something a bit like this on one of Oratory's diffuse field compensated graphs...

BESTBASSANDTREBLE.jpg


Lately, I've been looking at these differences both with and without a slope correction added to the DT-770's frequency. And since the earpads are all fairly worn for my DT-770's now, what I will use for the headphone's actual frequency response are both Oratory's plot of the DT-770 with the worn pads. And also a plot which represents the average response of Oratory's measurements with both the new and worn earpads. Which is represented by the black curve on this graph...

index.php


Here are some graphs comparing both the worn, and also the average of worn/new DT-770 response curves versus the other (potentially) more neutral-sounding headphones shown in my previous graph above. In each case the DT-770's response is shown in black. And the other headphones are represented by the curves in color. And for each DT-770 response curve, I also show the response before and after a -5 dB EQ slope correction has been added to its response, so you can see what effect that has on the headphone's overall response.

DT-770 WITH WORN PADS:

DT770 WORN BESTBASSANDTREBLE.jpg


DT-770 WITH WORN PADS WITH -5 DB EQ SLOPE ADJUSTMENT:

DT770 WORN 5DB SLOPE BESTBASSANDTREBLE.jpg


DT-770 NEW & WORN PADS AVERAGE:

DT-770 AVG BESTBASSANDTREBLE.jpg


DT-770 NEW & WORN PADS AVERAGE WITH -5 DB EQ SLOPE ADJUSTMENT:

DT-770 AVG 5DB SLOPE BESTBASSANDTREBLE.jpg


I have no idea how accurate any of the above plots really are for my particular headphones. But generally speaking, the DT-770 response curves with the -5 dB slope added seem to be a little better match to the other headphones with a potentially more neutral response. Particularly in the treble. There are still some fairly noteworthy differences between the two though, even with this simple EQ tweak applied. And some of those other differences may also need a little correcting for a more neutral sound as well.

There is a fairly sizable notch, null or cancellation effect on these headphones in the upper mids / low treble region, for example, that is somewhere around the general vicinity of the 3 to 4.5 kHz range. Which is difficult to remove without also adding some elevation to the levels around that notch in the headphone's response. I do like to apply at least a couple or few dB boost to that notch though in an attempt to finagle maybe a bit more detail out of that area.

You can probably also see where a few other adjustments might possibly be needed in both the lower and higher frequencies as well. In addition to some spots in the bass and treble that may need a little tweaking, these headphones also seem a bit bright to me in the ~2 kHz range of the upper mids. So I will also drop the response in that area down a bit (by maybe a couple/few dBs) to better match the dip that some of the other headphones have in that general area.

The slope adjustment alone though can do alot of the work on these HPs. So I try to be somewhat conservative with my other adjustments. And not overdo the tweaks to some of the less important, or smaller scale bumps and wiggles in the DT-770's response. Because I'm less sure about how real and significant some of those other imbalances are.

I've applied some smoothing to the DT-770's bass response in the above curves btw. Because I think Oratory's graphs may tend to exaggerate some of the audible fluctuations in that area a bit. Some of the fairly large changes in volume in the 50 Hz to 250 Hz area of Oratory's original plots could perhaps be partially an artifact of the earpads vibrating in that range with the fairly high volume test signals, for example. Which is an effect that may be much less noticeable when listening to music at more normal volume levels on the headphones. I am fairly sure there is a little bit of dip in the headphone's response in the 200-250 Hz range, and probably also around 70-80 Hz. And that some adjustments may also be needed in the bass to smooth those out a bit, to give the headphones a little better warmth and balance there.
 
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ADU

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You can use either parametric filters or another graphic EQ (if you like) to correct some of the smaller scale stuff above. Whatever floats your boat. Graphic EQ's are probably a bit more "old-school". But I tend to find them somewhat easier to use for such tweaks. So that is often what I will use, at least to sketch some adjustments out initially.

Both kinds of filters are stackable in the Equalizer APO's Configuration Editor. So you can combine, for example, a simple slope EQ, with other graphic EQ's to also address some of the other issues discussed above. This is the sort of arrangement I've been trying lately (though I could easily change my mind and go in completely different direction than what's currently shown here).

DT-770 EQ STACK.jpg


The first graphic EQ in the stack is the overall slope control. The second EQ is used to smooth out some of the smaller scale bumps and dips a little bit better. And the third EQ basically breaks the response down into 3 "zones" for the bass, midrange, and treble as shown below. To give me some better control over the headphone's overall tonal balance (in addition to the slope control).

EQ ZONES.jpg


GraphicEQ: 20 0; 63 0; 200 0; 633 0; 2000 0; 6300 0; 20000 0

I will also include some graphs of my headphone's frequency response in the stack as well, so I can see how all of the above changes are effecting its response in the Configuration Editor's Analysis Panel. When not needed, the graph of the headphone's response can simply be turned off with the blue power button on the left.

The above EQ curves are just some examples, btw, which I would not try to duplicate precisely. It's better if you use the info in the above graphs (or other graphs), and your own ears to make your tweaks... which could be somewhat similar to the above, or not. Because I have my own particular sound preferences, and also problems with my hearing that I may also be compensating for with some of the above tweaks.

There are more general tips on using Equalizer APO's Configuration Editor and graphic EQs here, btw, for those who may be interested.
 
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Bernard23

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While it's great that people have produced large measurement databases for headphones (and this certainly has required a lot of work), it's unfortunate that this has engendered the perception that we can get an optimal frequency response from them simply by dialing in an EQ prescription.

The Harman curve is a design target for manufacturers who want to make headphones that will produce an acceptable response for the majority of people, and it's proved to be better at that than other design targets that have been used. It offers no guarantee that a headphone that closely matches it will be the best possible solution for your particular hearing/preference. It's a good starting point, but if you want an optimal response you have to be prepared to modify the EQ yourself to correct problems that you hear. Personally, I've found that it takes repeated small adjustments over the course of several months to get the EQ for a particular set of headphones just right.
Indeed, it's perfectly feasible (and probably a normal distribution) of physiological head (and ear) shapes around the harman ideal mean, so for a significant number of people, the Harman curve is not ideal, and will sound different. All you can do is set the EQ to your own taste, maybe using the FR sweep as a starting point and trying to mitigate the obvious spikes, or by listening to a pair of phones that have measured close to the ideal curve (eg AKG 371 etc) and see how those sound. The question is if you don't like the sound of the perfect curve, is that because you're not sufficiently audiophile discerning, or that your phsysiology is 3 sigma from the assumed mean? Do we all see colours the same etc etc, very difficult to measure with any confidence.
 

charleski

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Indeed, it's perfectly feasible (and probably a normal distribution) of physiological head (and ear) shapes around the harman ideal mean, so for a significant number of people, the Harman curve is not ideal, and will sound different. All you can do is set the EQ to your own taste, maybe using the FR sweep as a starting point and trying to mitigate the obvious spikes, or by listening to a pair of phones that have measured close to the ideal curve (eg AKG 371 etc) and see how those sound. The question is if you don't like the sound of the perfect curve, is that because you're not sufficiently audiophile discerning, or that your phsysiology is 3 sigma from the assumed mean? Do we all see colours the same etc etc, very difficult to measure with any confidence.
And we mustn't forget that studies of equal-loudness contours have shown substantial variation when grouped on either age or sex, even when individual variation within the group is averaged out. See Kurakata & Mizunami 2014 for instance:
age.PNG

sex.PNG

Even though these are most pronounced at high-frequencies in line with conventional notions of age-related hearing loss, there are also clear differences of 5dB or more at 250 and 500Hz.

Everyone's ear has a different transfer function and there is no such thing as one-size-fits-all if you're searching for an optimal headphone response curve.
 

Bernard23

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I wonder if this large variation explains the polarised view of some of the more extreme products, like Grado for example. Those whose physiology "fits" will love them, but the other side of the distribution or HRTF will absolutely hate them (and often do!). In my little semi qualititative test, I'm going to compare some Yamahas that I have just bought that compare very well to the harman ideal, according to Amir's tests anyway; and compare them to the Grados that I own, and really like. Mind you, I've got old ears, so that helps, but I've always like the Grado sound over the last 30 years or so.
 

gvl

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RAA compensation is incorrect and should not be used to EQ on.

7kHz needs -8dB and 13kHz needs -7dB
Q= 4 for both filters, maybe somewhere between 3 and 4.

The HATS used are incorrect above 8kHz and an incorrect EQ is to be expected.
Below 8kHz it is accurate. Below 200Hz adjust EQ to taste.
Seal issues may also warrant a different EQ below 200Hz.
13kHz peak = nasty sharp edge to instruments.

Headphone measurements is not an exact science as some folks make it out to be.

Glad I found this, my attempts to go after Oratory and RAA curves/EQ left me disappointed. I can finally enjoy my DT770s now :)
 
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