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Dr. Klaus Heinz of HEDD Audio (ex ADAM Audio) - measuring speakers, in particular speaker dynamics

amirm

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#21
I think there may be a language barrier here. Classic dynamic range is of course easily measurable. I think he is referring to the grandeur of the experience. An example of this is comparing a bookshelf speaker to tower. The latter projects a much larger and "dynamic" experience that is not in the former.
 

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#22
I think there may be a language barrier here. Classic dynamic range is of course easily measurable. I think he is referring to the grandeur of the experience. An example of this is comparing a bookshelf speaker to tower. The latter projects a much larger and "dynamic" experience that is not in the former.
I think he may not be accounting for sighted bias, which is part of your point.

I also think he's genuinely not aware of how to measure a speaker and room interaction, for example, to accurately predict fully the perception of dynamics, unsighted (though I'm sure he's aware of thermal compression). He's right on that. There is no cookie cutter recipe for that and a simple linearity/distortion measurement won't tell the full picture. I gave some examples.
 
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Music1969

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Thread Starter #23
An example of this is comparing a bookshelf speaker to tower. The latter projects a much larger and "dynamic" experience that is not in the former.
Yes he gives the very clear example of big studio monitors vs bookshelves.

That's an extreme example of course but he does have 1st hand experience in both... (Adam Audio)... which is unique, amongst us here anyway.
 
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Music1969

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Thread Starter #24
I also think he's genuinely not aware of how to measure a speaker and room interaction
If you check his past experience, this is a bit of an extreme thing to say (pro audio...)
 
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DDF

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#25
If you check his past experience, this is a bit of an extreme thing to say (pro audio...)
Maybe its a communication gap. I'm saying no one knows how to precisely predict how the off axis will precisely affect tonal balance or perception of dynamics. It always requires tweaking later with some unexpected results. He himself is saying the same thing
 

March Audio

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#26
I think there may be a language barrier here. Classic dynamic range is of course easily measurable. I think he is referring to the grandeur of the experience. An example of this is comparing a bookshelf speaker to tower. The latter projects a much larger and "dynamic" experience that is not in the former.
Just started looking at this thread and my first reaction was indeed that dynamics / compression will be fairly easy to measure.

As such I agree this is partly a language issue. I also suspect that emphasis in certain parts of the frequency range may also lead to the subjective impression of greater dynamics.
 

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#27
I also suspect that emphasis in certain parts of the frequency range may also lead to the subjective impression of greater dynamics.
I have found this very true for horn loudspeakers.
 
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Music1969

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Thread Starter #28
Maybe its a communication gap. I'm saying no one knows how to precisely predict how the off axis will precisely affect tonal balance or perception of dynamics. It always requires tweaking later with some unexpected results. He himself is saying the same thing
Thanks, now I understand.
 
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Music1969

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Thread Starter #29
@Purité Audio , through your HEDD Audio contact, can you see if Dr Klaus Heinz would join this discussion?

As you can see, it's quite fascinating. Would be great to have him here, instead of us just guessing what he meant in the video interview.
 

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#30
@Music1969 I tried an experiment comparing a small speaker to a large speaker here: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...ker-comparison-with-binaural-recordings-r768/

I equalised both speakers to have the same frequency response (within what can be done in a home environment) and both had (the same) subwoofers. One has to be a bit careful with terms, as I "thought" the horn loaded system would be more "dynamic" than the inefficient Kef LS50 bookself speaker. I also thought the big speaker would sound "bigger".

I made binaural recordings for both speakers. You can listen to them over headphones to get a good feel for what they sound like. I then level matched and spliced the binaural recordings together and switched between the two speakers every 10 seconds. I left some of the "splice" sound in so one can get the cue that the speaker had been switched.

I thought big speakers sound more dynamic than small speakers, but that isn't what I heard on the binaural recordings. Given similar frequency responses, the two (wildly) different speakers sounded more alike than different, with the same dynamics., to my ears. Also, as long as the bass response is the same whether one is using a large floor stander or bookshelf with subs, also sounds more or less similar as far as "size" of image created. Of course, there are limitations, the first being the absolute SPL that they output. But both easily play at reference level (i.e. around 83 dB SPL C weighted at the listening position).

Another surprise is the audible difference between the two speakers are their directivity indexes. The big speaker, high directivity and the little speakers, wider directivity. So the big speaker has less "room sound" while the smaller, wider directivity speaker had more room sound mixed in with the direct sound. You can hear it clearly on the binaural recordings. I think that change in tonal response is the main difference as they both sound the same from a "dynamics" perspective. But maybe you will hear it differently. Give it a listen and let us know what you hear...
Cheers,
Mitch
 
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Music1969

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Thread Starter #31
Fantastic stuff @mitchco . What a great example to test big box vs little box - I wish I was there with you on the day!

Like you I don't hear any significant difference (sighted) in 'dynamics' playing back over headphones but I don't know what that means given it is over headphones... compared with you, being there.

But the fact that you had expectation bias towards the big box sounding 'bigger' and more dynamic and in the end it wasn't much different to you (even sighted), that's a very fascinating data point.

And like you mentioned, I definitely hear something tonally different with the KEFs. Very easy to pickup on headphones. I'm not great at describing things but it sounds like a bit more reverb, especially in vocals and top end? Probably due to directivity differences and room effects as you suggested.

What you say about a difference in tonal response due to speaker and room interaction is also what @DDF hinted earlier too.

Thanks for sharing this. I find it really fascinating.
 

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#32
@Music I have asked Klaus if he might contribute to the discussion, one of the main reasons I want to try the HEDD’s is the question of dynamics and the large/small speaker question.
Keith
 
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Krunok

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#34
@Music1969 I tried an experiment comparing a small speaker to a large speaker here: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...ker-comparison-with-binaural-recordings-r768/

I equalised both speakers to have the same frequency response (within what can be done in a home environment) and both had (the same) subwoofers. One has to be a bit careful with terms, as I "thought" the horn loaded system would be more "dynamic" than the inefficient Kef LS50 bookself speaker. I also thought the big speaker would sound "bigger".

I made binaural recordings for both speakers. You can listen to them over headphones to get a good feel for what they sound like. I then level matched and spliced the binaural recordings together and switched between the two speakers every 10 seconds. I left some of the "splice" sound in so one can get the cue that the speaker had been switched.

I thought big speakers sound more dynamic than small speakers, but that isn't what I heard on the binaural recordings. Given similar frequency responses, the two (wildly) different speakers sounded more alike than different, with the same dynamics., to my ears. Also, as long as the bass response is the same whether one is using a large floor stander or bookshelf with subs, also sounds more or less similar as far as "size" of image created. Of course, there are limitations, the first being the absolute SPL that they output. But both easily play at reference level (i.e. around 83 dB SPL C weighted at the listening position).

Another surprise is the audible difference between the two speakers are their directivity indexes. The big speaker, high directivity and the little speakers, wider directivity. So the big speaker has less "room sound" while the smaller, wider directivity speaker had more room sound mixed in with the direct sound. You can hear it clearly on the binaural recordings. I think that change in tonal response is the main difference as they both sound the same from a "dynamics" perspective. But maybe you will hear it differently. Give it a listen and let us know what you hear...
Cheers,
Mitch
Yep, no magic there - adding a sub to a small speaker immediately enables it to produce "big" and "effortless" sound typicall for large speakers. Differences in your test would probably completely diminish if you were comparing LS50 vs Q950 instead of your JBLs as directivity characteristics would be more similar and sonic differences in MF and HF would be lower.
 

svart-hvitt

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#35
«DYNAMICS»

Will a speaker of lower sensitivity partnered with an amplifier of higher power sound the same as a speaker of higher sensitivity partnered with an amplifier of lower power?

Is amplifier power a substitute of speaker sensitivity?

Is sensitivity of speaker audible? If yes, in what ways?
 

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#36
I think it's a question of whether the speaker gives its presence away. For example, Doppler distortion won't show up in a conventional THD measurement but it will increase when a composite recording gets louder. Doppler distortion is much higher for small speakers that require more cone displacement for the same SPL.

The composite recording is being fed through a channel. Is that channel neutral - in which case all the objects within the recording remain separate - or is it non-neutral in which case the objects are in some sense smeared together? You can match two systems in their steady state frequency response and distortion measurements and yet still be different in terms of neutrality of the channel.
 

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#37
Doppler distortion is much higher for small speakers that require more cone displacement for the same SPL.
Once you add a sub to the small loudspeaker you will typically reduce it's bass extension thus it's cone displacement would be pretty much equal that of the large speaker.
 

Cosmik

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#38
Once you add a sub to the small loudspeaker you will typically reduce it's bass extension thus it's cone displacement would be pretty much equal that of the large speaker.
For sure, but doesn't that make the small speaker into a 'big' speaker?
 

Krunok

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#39
For sure, but doesn't that make the small speaker into a 'big' speaker?
Indeed it does! :)

IMHO the only difference between "small" and "big" speaker sound, and @mitchco 's experiment seems to prove it, is in bass response. And the only way to fix it is adding a sub which effectively converts it to a "big" speaker.

I have 2 pairs of speakers in my room, Castle Harlech S2 which I'm using as front speakers for movies (and for listening to music) and Castle Ricmond 3 speakers as rears for movies. The thing is that Richmonds have the same drivers as Harlechs but Harlechs are floorstanders with 2 woofers while Richmonds have only one. When I put Richmonds on top of my Harlech and start listening music I immediately noice they sound "smaller". I also have a subjective feeling they "struggle" to fill the room with sound while Harlechs do that "effortlesly" and with "ease". But when I created filters to adjust LF response of the Harlechs to that of the Richmonds they immediately started to sound small as well. And why wouldn't they - except for the larger box and additional woofer they are indeed identical.
 
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JohnPM

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#40
From my experience designing many speakers, I think he may be tripping up on a few things
So despite his 40 years of professional experience of designing loudspeakers, including founding two pro audio loudspeaker companies and running their R&D, you think he doesn't understand speaker design and measurement as well as you do?
 
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