Does Over Exceeded Amplifier Volume Damage Speaker?

[Cybertech119]

Audiophiles and HiFi aficionados seriously underestimate how powerful their systems really are. They are constantly tweaking the volume a tiny bit this way and that, thinking they are on the edge, and yet, they are mostly about 10-20% of what their gear is capable of.

Probably a good thing, but it is fun to show people what a serious HiFi system is capable of- often one they have had for years and run on 'idle'.

Why do they underestimate the system power?
It doesn’t make sense anyway.

 

[abdo123]

Now, tell me while the Manufacturer added the volume capacity to 100%

Why didn’t they stop at 70% hence the Maximum volume will cause damage

because some devices will provide very low voltage (a headphone jack on a phone, the output of a fringe phono stage .etc) and for those you need to raise the gain of the amplifier accordingly.

 

[abdo123]

Audiophiles and HiFi aficionados seriously underestimate how powerful their systems really are. They are constantly tweaking the volume a tiny bit this way and that, thinking they are on the edge, and yet, they are mostly about 10-20% of what their gear is capable of.

Probably a good thing, but it is fun to show people what a serious HiFi system is capable of- often one they have had for years and run on 'idle'.

I believe both sides exist. lets not forget that there are some people out there with fringe Class A amplifiers and tubes that barely output 5W before seriously distorting.

 

[charleski]

You can cook a tweeter in a 200w rated speaker with 10 minutes of barely audible clipping from a 40w integrated

Very few tweeters can handle 40W, so this is hardly surprising. But 40W is fairly powerful. You could make the argument that it's amps in the midrange of 20-100W (which is the majority) that are most dangerous in careless hands. But the chances of blowing your 200W speaker with a 10W amp are minuscule, no matter how much it clips.

 

[WireWoundResistor]

But the chances of blowing your 200W speaker with a 10W amp are minuscule, no matter how much it clips.

I wouldn't want to try it. Infinite harmonics that can go way above rated continous output and will go directly to the tweeter... yikes.

 

[restorer-john]

I believe both sides exist. lets not forget that there are some people out there with fringe Class A amplifiers and tubes that barely output 5W before seriously distorting.

Very good point.

 

[restorer-john]

Tweeters can handle a few watts, maybe 5-10watts, no more. There. Is no ability for the VC to get rid of that on a continuous basis.

 

[killdozzer]

I would have to disagree with the second half of your post. I know for a fact, and I've seen it countless times, that it's easier to destroy a speaker with an underpowered amp than with an overpowered amp. You can cook a tweeter in a 200w rated speaker with 10 minutes of barely audible clipping from a 40w integrated. In professional audio applications this is one of the most common reasons for speaker failure. An underpowered power-amp in overdrive will kill your speakers really fast. It's better to have double the rated power of a speaker in an amp than the other way around.

I believe this is a myth efficiently debunked in the Audioholic series on "Loudspeakers & Power Ratings", namely in part III

Notice: The myth is that it is easier to destroy a speaker, that it is the most common reason and that it will kill your speaker really fast. It's not a myth that it can be done since it can, the myth refers only to the underline parts. We might add a rather new part of this myth that it is barely audible clipping.

If you don't have time to read the entire series on Audioholics web site (and that would be a shame if you don't mind me saying), here's the gist of it that only concerns the myth above:

It is not easier as you'll have to withstand a prolonged unpleasant distortion and not turn the volume down. Also it will not destroy the speaker, only the tweeter.
It is not the most common reason for the same reasons as above - upper mids sound horrible, almost everyone turns the volume down. It is far easier to kill the speaker with too much power and this is a more common cause.
As I said in the first sentence; it is not killing your speaker, only the tweeter and it needs some time (and even more in modern ferrofluid cooled).
It is not a "silent killer" of your speakers as it has been made to look. A huge amount of power going to the tweeter as it does when clipping will really be audible.

So, it can be done, at the end of the day, but it has been really made into something that it is not. Another thing, underpowered is really circumstantial. Expecting a speaker rated 50w - 250w to give you 100dB with a 20w amp is kinda your fault. But if you want it to play up to 90dB, even with dips to 4 ohms, a 20w amp will do it for years since it need first few watts for that anyway.

 

[tomtoo]

Tweeters can handle a few watts, maybe 5-10watts, no more. There. Is no ability for the VC to get rid of that on a continuous basis.

I would say the VC of a good 2" compression driver can handle at least a littel bit more.

 

[restorer-john]

I would say the VC of a good 2" compression driver can handle at least a littel bit more.

OK. Prove it.

10 watts average continuous power is a lot of heat to get rid of in a tiny 2" tweeter VC. In fact, I'll bet you can't do it.

 

[rdenney]

Now, tell me while the Manufacturer added the volume capacity to 100%

Why didn’t they stop at 70% hence the Maximum volume will cause damage

Because there are no standards for maximum output voltage from source devices, until CD players came along. One device might put out 400 millivolts and another 2 volts at their reference output. The volume control, if it allows the first device to drive the amp to full power, will allow the second device to seriously overdrive the amp.

Rick “plus differences in preamp gain” Denney

 

[tomtoo]

OK. Prove it.

10 watts average continuous power is a lot of heat to get rid of in a tiny 2" tweeter VC. In fact, I'll bet you can't do it.

Nothing speacial, and i dont think it realy starts to sweat with 10w rms.

CDX20-3075 (Legacy) - Celestion

2-inch exit ferrite magnet compression driver

celestion.com

I mean the joke is , that a 2" compression driver has a 3" VC. Thats the difference to a dome tweeter.

 

[WireWoundResistor]

I believe this is a myth efficiently debunked in the Audioholic series on "Loudspeakers & Power Ratings", namely in part III

Notice: The myth is that it is easier to destroy a speaker that it is the most common reason and that it will kill your speaker really fast. It's not a myth that it can be done since it can, the myth refers only to the underline parts. We might add a rather new part of this myth that it is barely audible clipping.

If you don't have time to read the entire series on Audioholics web site (and that would be a shame if you don't mind me saying), here's the gist of it that only concerns the myth above:

It is not easier as you'll have to withstand a prolonged unpleasant distortion and not turn the volume down. Also it will not destroy the speaker, only the tweeter.
It is not the most common reason for the same reasons as above - upper mids sound horrible, almost everyone turns the volume down. It is far easier to kill the speaker with too much power and this is a more common cause.
As I said in the first sentence; it is not killing your speaker, only the tweeter and it needs some time (and even more in modern ferrofluid cooled).
It is not a "silent killer" of your speakers as it has been made to look. A huge amount of power going to the tweeter as it does when clipping will really be audible.

So, it can be done, at the end of the day, but it has been really made into something that it is not. Another thing, underpowered is really circumstantial. Expecting a speaker rated 50w - 250w to give you 100dB with a 20w amp is kinda your fault. But if you want it to play up to 90dB, even with dips to 4 ohms, a 20w amp will do it for years since it need first few watts for that anyway.

I have read that Audioholics Series and I don't believe it debunks anything I've said. It's true that "only" the tweeter will see damage from a clipped signal, but for me cooking a tweeter is basically the same as destroying a speaker, though some people might disagree. The only thing that matters to a voice coil is, how much energy you pump into it and for how long. A clipped signal will give more energy to the tweeter than almost any "naturally occurring" signal that is usually band limited in some way.

And yes, "barely audible clipping" sounds strange, BUT keep in mind that in a loud PA application or a party situation what is audible and what isn't might not be the same as at home in your listening chair. That whole "silent killer" thing that audio salesmen love to spring on you to make you buy the bigger amp is indeed a myth. When listening critically any distortion that can destroy your tweeter will also irritate the f**k out of you.

That said, of course it's also very easy to kill a woofer with too much power, no one is disputing that, but the thing I have seen happen more often, even under professional supervision, is underpowered amps killing the tops.

 

[mhardy6647]

Most damages always affect the Amp. I think speakers always survive getting burnt

^^^ Not my experience historically/empirically, FWIW.

In my own defense most of the carnage (most!) that I've seen in loudspeakers was someone else's "work" (i.e., I "inherited the wind", so to speak) or situational (e.g., DC on direct-coupled ss amplifier outputs ) rather than just my own exuberance with SPLs I have popped a few tweeter fuses in my time, though.

I also want to echo/emphasize that deformation of a driver voice coil as mentioned by me and @tvrgeek is perhaps the most common and insidious 'failure' mode. Cooking crossover components and burning out VCs aren't uncommon, though in the past two or three decades.

Very good point.

I resemble that remark

 

[DVDdoug]

The bottom line is - A 100W speaker is supposed to be safe with a 100W amplifier that's hitting 100W on the peaks (no severe clipping). A "100W" speaker is not guaranteed to survive constant 100W test-tones, and as has been mentioned the tweeter certainly can't survive 100W.

There is a JBL Paper and it essentially says what I said above, except under "controlled conditions" with highly dynamic program material you can get-away with an amplifier with twice the speaker power rating. With musical instrument amplifiers where the amp is routinely driven into distortion it's the other way around and the speaker should be rated for twice the amplifier power. (Note that guitar amps don't normally have tweeters so a hi-fi speaker might still get fried at half its power rating.)

Note that the JBL paper assumes honest IEC power ratings. I rarely see "IEC" in the specs and you can't generally trust amplifier or speaker ratings...

Also, it's probably worth mentioning a "100 W" amplifier (an amplifier that clips at 100W) can put-out more than 100W when clipping. i.e. 40V peak is 100W into 8-Ohms but that's assuming a sine wave. A square wave that peaks at 40V (similar to very-very-very bad clipping ) is 200W.

 

[charleski]

I wouldn't want to try it. Infinite harmonics that can go way above rated continous output and will go directly to the tweeter... yikes.

Well, no amplifier is going to deliver an infinite amount of power, no matter how bad the clipping ... it's limited by the rail voltage and internal losses.

The general approximation is that the tweeter will see about 15% of the delivered power, and should be rated accordingly. So your "200W" speaker should be fitted with a tweeter rated for 30W peaks. That's peak value, obviously, and half of that should be reserved for headroom. A 40W amp will easily fry it if driven into clipping for more than a brief period. But the idea that a 40W amp is 'low-powered' is really just a consequence of marketing campaigns and spec inflation.

 

[killdozzer]

Well, no amplifier is going to deliver an infinite amount of power, no matter how bad the clipping ... it's limited by the rail voltage and internal losses.

The general approximation is that the tweeter will see about 15% of the delivered power, and should be rated accordingly. So your "200W" speaker should be fitted with a tweeter rated for 30W peaks. That's peak value, obviously, and half of that should be reserved for headroom. A 40W amp will easily fry it if driven into clipping for more than a brief period. But the idea that a 40W amp is 'low-powered' is really just a consequence of marketing campaigns and spec inflation.

And most modern amps have DC speaker protection. No DC offset associated with the overload.

 

[Tom C]

For hosting a party, you may be able to rent a PA system from a local pro audio supplier. I wouldn't think Eons plus sub would be super expensive for one or two days rental. At any rate, it may be less expensive than blowing your speakers and having to replace them. And, it would be good and loud.

 

[Cybertech119]

For hosting a party, you may be able to rent a PA system from a local pro audio supplier. I wouldn't think Eons plus sub would be super expensive for one or two days rental. At any rate, it may be less expensive than blowing your speakers and having to replace them. And, it would be good and loud.

Lol.. Speakers should work efficiently. It must be able to serve it’s purpose.

 

[Holmz]

Lol.. Speakers should work efficiently. It must be able to serve it’s purpose.

Hence the idea to run them hard for an hour to get some confidence.
And are you 20ish?