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Do you need linear power supply for DACs?

Miska

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#41
Wavpack supports lossless DSD compression. Anyway, support it or not, your choice. But all these upsampling stuff, measurable or not, I can't hear any improvement, absolutely. So these kinds of processing are not for me. Thanks.
I have 8 TB HDD so not so much problem... But since there are not endless hours in a day I need to prioritize things.

Just curious what DAC are you using and how did you choose it? How are you using HQPlayer? You don't hear differences with digital room correction, 3D headphone processing or such either? To me, one of the many driving factors was to get digital room correction for DSD in proper way, without suffling the sample rate down and up.

To me, different digital filters sound different, also the ones built into the ESS Sabre, even if they have same stop-band attenuation. It is not the only thing, just one of the many many aspects. Also because at ADC or mastering side the PCM content we listen has been subject to digital decimation filters, leaving their own fingerprint to the signal and sound. With apodizing filters you can replace this.

When I worked in Navy, first training passive sonar operators to listen and use analyzers and later developing analyzers, I learned that ears are definitely good at certain tasks and analyzers at other things. But there's no huge overlap. And you can learn listening a lot...
 

bennetng

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#42
I have 8 TB HDD so not so much problem... But since there are not endless hours in a day I need to prioritize things.

Just curious what DAC are you using and how did you choose it? How are you using HQPlayer? You don't hear differences with digital room correction, 3D headphone processing or such either? To me, one of the many driving factors was to get digital room correction for DSD in proper way, without suffling the sample rate down and up.

To me, different digital filters sound different, also the ones built into the ESS Sabre, even if they have same stop-band attenuation. It is not the only thing, just one of the many many aspects. Also because at ADC or mastering side the PCM content we listen has been subject to digital decimation filters, leaving their own fingerprint to the signal and sound. With apodizing filters you can replace this.

When I worked in Navy, first training passive sonar operators to listen and use analyzers and later developing analyzers, I learned that ears are definitely good at certain tasks and analyzers at other things. But there's no huge overlap. And you can learn listening a lot...
I don't know why I am being forced to believe I can hear something I can't hear? If (you think) you have good hearing, totally fine. I can't even hear some lossy codecs in high bitrates, and resampler resampled to and from prime numbers with multiple passes. You can sell this stuff to believers, but sorry, I am not one of them. I am talking about upsampling, not 3D processings and such.
 

Miska

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#43
I don't know why I am being forced to believe I can hear something I can't hear? If (you think) you have good hearing, totally fine. I can't even hear some lossy codecs in high bitrates, and resampler resampled to and from prime numbers with multiple passes. You can sell this stuff to believers, but sorry, I am not one of them. I am talking about upsampling, not 3D processings and such.
I'm not trying to do that at all. If you don't hear differences between different DAC chip filters, or between different HQPlayer filters, that is fine. Your first response was just that because of that it is useless work from the side of DAC chip manufacturers and me.

That got me into question what parts of HQPlayer you find useful, apart from the missing wavpack support. Given that upsampling is only part of the functionality. And downsampling of course, for example if you'd want to buy material recorded in DSD256 but cannot play it as such right now with your current hardware (or if your current hardware doesn't do that particularly well like Chord for example).
 

March Audio

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#44
I'm not trying to do that at all. ).
So when you post 2 graphs showing an an improvement what are you trying to do?

Do you think the difference in harmonic distortion between these 2 graphs you posted is audible or inaudible?

PreBoxS2-44k-THD-graph.png


PreBoxS2-DSD512-THD-graph.png


When you referred to ultrasonic spuria 100dB down as "unacceptable" what were you trying to do?
 

Miska

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#45
When you referred to ultrasonic spuria 100dB down as "unacceptable" what were you trying to do?
Ultrasonic spuria in original post in this thread is down to -65 dB.

So when you post 2 graphs showing an an improvement what are you trying to do?
Showing objective, measurable difference.

There are various measurable differences, I report on those differences. Same goes for the original post about power supply differences. That is what I see most of the measurement reports on this site doing. What are those reports trying to do?
 

March Audio

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#46
No, the "junk in between" was at about - 100dB. The 768 kHz spuria are of no consequence. If they are then your amp is going to be picking up AM radio and you will have a lot more to worry about.

Showing an objective difference to what end? If it is inaudible what is your purpose other than chasing dragons?

So do you think the difference in harmonic distortion between those two plots is audible or inaudible? I'm going to assume you think it's inaudible because your lack of straight response and there is no way you can justify it as being audible.

I think Arcimago summed it up

As discussed in late 2018, I'm far from impressed by audiophiles who seem to believe that there's all kinds of noise, jitter and whatnot affecting the sound output from otherwise competent DACs connected to computers through USB. Anxiety over things that appear to have no basis in reality amounts to perpetuation of unsubstantiated fear, uncertainty, and doubt. I hope magazines and on-line sources seek to find balance and evidence when these kinds of ideas are presented.
 
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bennetng

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#47
When you referred to ultrasonic spuria 100dB down as "unacceptable" what were you trying to do?
Before talking about DAC/ADC differences. I worked in audio restoration field and listened to thousands of original tapes.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,96560.0.html

So I know how analog things sound like without affected by digital processing. I also compared digitized materials in different configurations, with blind tests.

I can't say Miska cannot hear artifacts in flamenco recording, but presenting measurements with trivial differences in (my, not Miska's) audilbe range is pretty boring.;)
 

Miska

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#48
Showing an objective difference to what end? If it is inaudible what is your purpose other than chasing dragons?
Obviously based on your opinion same can be said about all measurements published on this site?

than I think Arcimago summed it up
That's your opinion and you are of course free to have any.

In my experience some of the heard differences can be accounted for measured differences. Some can be accounted for measurements that people don't usually do. And for some differences there are no simple measurement methods, but those can be analyzed in the digital domain regarding the DSP algorithms. And for some, you just need to listen.

If you ever happen to try to catch a submarine through passive acoustic system, like I was doing for years. I can tell you that ears are very good tool for that, in many cases better than analyzers. Analyzers, when the signal is strong enough can help identifying some more details you've been hearing all along though.
 

March Audio

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#49
Before talking about DAC/ADC differences. I worked in audio restoration field and listened to thousands of original tapes.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,96560.0.html

So I know how analog things sound like without affected by digital processing. I also compared digitized materials in different configurations, with blind tests.

I can't say Miska cannot hear artifacts in flamenco recording, but presenting measurements with trivial differences in (my, not Miska's) audilbe range is pretty boring.;)

It's fine presenting this stuff so long as there is some credible evidence of real world impact, otherwise as you said its pretty boring and actually misleading IMO.
 

Miska

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#50
I can't say Miska cannot hear artifacts in flamenco recording, but presenting measurements with trivial differences in (my, not Miska's) audilbe range is pretty boring.;)
But that is what this site is about. SINAD is only thing that matters! (except that they'll anyway tell you that you cannot hear it anyway)
 

Miska

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#51
It's fine presenting this stuff so long as there is some credible evidence of real world impact, otherwise as you said its pretty boring and actually misleading IMO.
OK, now I want clear description of that credible evidence that measurement results posted by Amir on this site are
1) are not boring
2) are not misleading
3) have real world impact

;)

Then I want you to describe how my measurements differ?
 

March Audio

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#53
Obviously based on your opinion same can be said about all measurements published on this site?



That's your opinion and you are of course free to have any.

In my experience some of the heard differences can be accounted for measured differences. Some can be accounted for measurements that people don't usually do. And for some differences there are no simple measurement methods, but those can be analyzed in the digital domain regarding the DSP algorithms. And for some, you just need to listen.

If you ever happen to try to catch a submarine through passive acoustic system, like I was doing for years. I can tell you that ears are very good tool for that, in many cases better than analyzers. Analyzers, when the signal is strong enough can help identifying some more details you've been hearing all along though.
Not at all. However if you look at Amir's comments he does indeed state where he thinks there is no audible impact.

It's my opinion which you have reinforced with being evasive about the audibility of the distortion in the plots you presented.

I'm all for subjective assessment. Controlled subjective assessment. So if you think that many of the things you refer to are audible where is the subjective data to back it up?

Another thread today was talking about Audiophile network switches and silver network cable. The commentary there was similar in nature, where you just need to listen......
 
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Miska

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#54
I try to avoid Creative and nowadays also ASUS cards due to various issues. Creative for many reasons, from strange behavior to total lack of Linux driver support. ASUS is also having some ASIO driver issues. And even many pro-audio interfaces have ASIO driver issues. I have some workarounds in my code for some of those...

And the Microsoft's UAC2 driver nowadays included in Windows 10 is horribly bad, so you still need Thesycon's or someone else's driver...

For example the RME ADI-2 Pro is nice because the functionality is available on all platforms. Even DSD recording works on macOS.
 

March Audio

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#55
OK, now I want clear description of that credible evidence that measurement results posted by Amir on this site are
1) are not boring
2) are not misleading
3) have real world impact

;)

Then I want you to describe how my measurements differ?
Amir's measurements are an assessment of product performance. He often states when things that are seen are of no audible impact.

Many dac measurements are pretty boring as they mostly show good performance, but poor ones are identified. There is nothing boring about helping to inform people's purchasing decisions. You can confirm performance and judge value for money.

Your measurements so far appear to only promote the idea that out of band spuria are of significant negative audible impact. Tiny out of band signals that are apparently having audible effect. Yes they are measurable but where is the evidence that they are of any real concern?
 

Miska

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#56
Not at all. However if you look at Amir's comments he does indeed state where he thinks there is no audible impact.

It's my opinion which you have reinforced with being evasive about the audibility of the distortion in the its you presented.
I hate when people make statements that someone cannot hear something. It goes into same category as calling someone blind or stupid. And it is totally unnecessary babble.

I've heard similar claims about full-HD vs 4K that "you cannot see any difference anyway". And about display resolutions before Apple started to bring in increasing resolution "retina displays" with high DPI.

I'm all for subjective assessment. Controlled subjective assessment. So if you think that many of the things you refer to are audible where is the subjective data to back it up?
I have not seen subjective data about non-audibility claims presented in those reports.

Yeah, nothing new about this "people cannot hear/see anything", I've been hearing this all along.

Another thread today was talking about Audiophile network switches and silver network cable. The commentary there was similar in nature, where you just need to listen.....
Maybe you should... And also measure. But you seem to be selling cables too! Would be nice to see objective data backed with proof of subjective audibility on those!

Network cables matter STP vs UTP, many audiophile network cables are STP connecting grounds of two devices to each other, potentially allowing ground currents to flow depending on overall system setup. Totally screwing up otherwise transformer isolated connection. UTP may have somewhat more EMI/RFI though. This is easily measurable too, but the effect is apparent only when you have all the devices setup in the entire system, because that determines for example how ground currents flow.

Network switches? Switches have other properties and features that matter, mostly indirectly and depending on how you have connected those as part of the system and what other components the system has. Switch is a totally useless device alone.

So the "audiophile" or "silver" part may not make difference, but some other property may.

Try to set up pro-system with AES67/RAVENNA or AVB and you'll notice that some of the networking gear matters, but in a different way.
 

Miska

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#57
Amir's measurements are an assessment of product performance.
So are mine, I assess which input format to a certain hardware produce best performance.

There is nothing boring about helping to inform people's purchasing decisions. You can confirm performance and judge value for money.
Yes, exactly. You may be able to help a cheaper product achieve better performance by helping it a little.

I believe one could make a cheaper well performing DAC by moving all the DSP processing out to the computer.

Your measurements so far appear to only promote the idea that out of band spuria are of significant negative audible impact. Tiny out of band signals that are apparently having audible effect. Yes they are measurable but where is the evidence that they are of any real concern?
They are part of it, but not the entire picture. And it all depends for example if they are correlated with music or not. Also different digital filters, even with same stop-band attenuation sound different (just switch between the different ESS Sabre filters in your own DAC). Different delta-sigma modulators, even with seemingly same performance sound different. etc

Here I was instead showing how the audio band performance changes for the ESS Sabre case in question.

There are tens of different things that matter for sound.
 
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March Audio

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#58
I hate when people make statements that someone cannot hear something. It goes into same category as calling someone blind or stupid. And it is totally unnecessary babble.

I've heard similar claims about full-HD vs 4K that "you cannot see any difference anyway". And about display resolutions before Apple started to bring in increasing resolution "retina displays" with high DPI.



I have not seen subjective data about non-audibility claims presented in those reports.

Yeah, nothing new about this "people cannot hear/see anything", I've been hearing this all along.



Maybe you should... And also measure. But you seem to be selling cables too! Would be nice to see objective data backed with proof of subjective audibility on those!

Network cables matter STP vs UTP, many audiophile network cables are STP connecting grounds of two devices to each other, potentially allowing ground currents to flow depending on overall system setup. Totally screwing up otherwise transformer isolated connection. UTP may have somewhat more EMI/RFI though. This is easily measurable too, but the effect is apparent only when you have all the devices setup in the entire system, because that determines for example how ground currents flow.

Network switches? Switches have other properties and features that matter, mostly indirectly and depending on how you have connected those as part of the system and what other components the system has. Switch is a totally useless device alone.

So the "audiophile" or "silver" part may not make difference, but some other property may.

Try to set up pro-system with AES67/RAVENNA or AVB and you'll notice that some of the networking gear matters, but in a different way.
Why would you hate comments about audibility based on scientific knowledge? That is neither stupid or babble.

Erm... If your viewing distance is too great no you won't see benefit from higher resolutions.

I think you should check Amir's background and his involvement with audio assessment, perception and knowledge of psychoacoustics etc.

You do realise that my cables are called the "NF" range? No Foo. Fit for purpose cable with fit for purpose connectors at a sensible price and not a thread of braiding in sight. ;)

Oh in the thread I specifically mentioned don't used screened network cable due to the potential of ground currents. We are not talking about avb or ravenna, we are talking about normal switches in a home network such as nas to pc.

So you think that otherwise special network switches and silver network cable are required and beneficial?

Some other property? Such as?

....... aaahhhhh all the things we don't know yet.... ;)
 
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March Audio

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#59
So are mine, I assess which input format to a certain hardware produce best performance.



Yes, exactly. You may be able to help a cheaper product achieve better performance by helping it a little.

I believe one could make a cheaper well performing DAC by moving all the DSP processing out to the computer.



They are part of it, but not the entire picture. And it all depends for example if they are correlated with music or not. Also different digital filters, even with same stop-band attenuation sound different (just switch between the different ESS Sabre filters in your own DAC). Different delta-sigma modulators, even with seemingly same performance sound different. etc

Here I was instead showing how the audio band performance changes for the ESS Sabre case in question.

There are tens of different things that matter for sound.
With an implication that it is audibly significant.

Problem is that as per your example above there seems very little to gain. Unless you are saying the difference between those plots is audible.

Adding computer processing does not reduce cost.

What is the audible effect of musically correlated spuria at - 100dB at 300kHz or whatever?

I have switched filters on dacs and gone round in circles. The ones that I was confident made a difference were the ones that had measurable in band effects (roll off)
 

Miska

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#60
Why would you hate comments about audibility based on scientific knowledge? That is neither stupid or babble.
A bit far-fetched conclusions to draw correlations between the two, given more differences than similarities.

That's for example based on my background on finding the needle in acoustic haystack.

We are not talking about avb or ravenna, we are talking about normal switches in a home network such as nas to pc.
Both are by the way coming to home networks too. Just check out Merging's NADAC family.

But yeah, my NAA is designed to work over WiFi and such.
 
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