Do You Need an External DAC/Headphone Amplifier?

[Sythrix]

EMI inside computer cases varies tremendously based on everything from the chosen components to the physical arrangement of the boards, power supply, fans, and cabling.

I assume that fantastic measurements on sound cards, if actually taken, are likely made on computers which bear little resemblance to normal home PCs. I would not be at all surprised to find out that they used tricks like relocating the power supply to an external enclosure and adding braided shields to all power and data cables. They could even be putting the sound card into an external PCIe expansion box, all by its lonesome, possibly with a disconnected fan and with EMI shielding tape at all seams.

In this instance it's not the sound card or the source hardware on the motherboard to which we are referring, but the cable which runs through that maze of EMI on its way to the front panel. You're right, that each system is different and will likely vary with its amount of EMI, but we're basically saying to avoid the front panel output regardless of which one, because of that cable on all systems which is typically poorly (or not at all) shielded and poorly routed.

Your point about testing methodology is a good one. We need to be sure of consistency going forward. For instance, @amirm , did you use the rear jacks to test the Gigabyte MB's output? Or did you test from the front panel outputs (if you have them)?

 

[bennetng]

@amirm, I am curious too if turning the power off to this port makes a difference (and while you are at it, if there is any difference when using the bus power between this port and a regular usb port).

https://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/measurement-asus-xonar-essence-one.html
Archimago's external Asus XONAR Essence One DAC suffers from noise when running stress tests, but only when using unbalanced output. So it seems that such things are not completely nonsense, a DAC with vulnerable designs may suffer from noise problem.

 

[amirm]

For instance, @amirm , did you use the rear jacks to test the Gigabyte MB's output?

Yes and that is a thing I hate about onboard audio. 3.5mm jack buried behind the back of the unit where I have to get a flashlight and crawl around to find it.

 

[amirm]

@amirm
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-Gaming-B8-rev-10#kf
The Gigabyte board under test also has a dedicated USB port for DAC, could you test it as well?
View attachment 14917

I plan to do that at a later stage.

 

[amirm]

@amirm, I am curious too if turning the power off to this port makes a difference (and while you are at it, if there is any difference when using the bus power between this port and a regular usb port).

How do I turn off the power to it and why would it make a difference to onboard audio???

 

[έχω δίκιο]

In this instance it's not the sound card or the source hardware on the motherboard to which we are referring, but the cable which runs through that maze of EMI on its way to the front panel.

But I'm saying that the EMI in the case affects the sound card, too. And the sound card output impedance affects how much noise the EMI induces in the front panel jacks.

If you're not going to use the front panel connections, I wouldn't hook them up, since the cables act as antennas to feed EMI back into the sound card.

 

[bennetng]

How do I turn off the power to it and why would it make a difference to onboard audio???

We are talking about hooking up an external USB DAC on that special port, tweaking the parameters of the port and measure the differences.
@Zilfallion seems to have a similar motherboard so he may be able to help you.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ernal-dac-headphone-amplifier.4116/post-96841

 

[n2it]

How do I turn off the power to it and why would it make a difference to onboard audio???

Sorry maybe a little off topic ... not talking about on board audio ...

The setting is likely in the bios ... and wondering impact of either the "clean" power and also no power to the performance of a USB DAC with this port. Is there a measurable difference compared to the other USB ports

 

[amirm]

Sorry maybe a little off topic ... not talking about on board audio ...

The setting is likely in the bios ... and wondering impact of either the "clean" power and also no power to the performance of a USB DAC with this port. Is there a measurable difference compared to the other USB ports

Well, that is what I am going to test later. Will use an external DAC and compare the performance using one of the regular USB ports and this special one. I am not sure of the benefit of no power on this special port since that is one of the benefits they advertise.

 

[Zilfallion]

Well, that is what I am going to test later. Will use an external DAC and compare the performance using one of the regular USB ports and this special one. I am not sure of the benefit of no power on this special port since that is one of the benefits they advertise.

I mean, we had a few people removing/taping power/ground pins from USB cables to feed their D50's data input cable since they were apparently getting noise from it when they got them if I remember properly. This port basically lets you avoid needing to modify your cable if it works well. I'm NOT sure if it would make a difference though, and you never measured any of that, so I doubt you'd be able to measure the impact from using the port, as it'll likely be system dependent.

 

[Kyle / MrHeeHo]

This review was pretty neat, I'd love to see more "everyday/non-"audiophile" items measured in the future

 

[Wombat]

Yes and that is a thing I hate about onboard audio. 3.5mm jack buried behind the back of the unit where I have to get a flashlight and crawl around to find it.

Make a little break-out box with connectors of your choice. All suitably shielded, of course.

 

[JJB70]

I find it much more annoying when a purpose built stand alone audio unit has awkward or badly placed jacks and connectors. I considered buying a Brenan B2 a while ago. I suspect audiophiles would laugh and I know it doesn't do anything you can't do with a computer, but the concept of a relatively low cost standalone CD ripper and hard drive that would release me from my computer to listen to music (I use a computer at work all day) and not cost the earth was very appealing. It's a small thing, but the rear plate combined line out/headphone jack really put me off, and I felt that rather than put in a low powered amp they'd probably have been better to provide a pre-amp line out.

 

[bennetng]

There are external PCI(E), CardBus and ExpressCard audio interfaces... historically.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/emu-1616m
http://www.creative.com/emu/products/product.aspx?pid=19007

http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdspe_expresscard.php
http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdsp_pci_e_interface.php
http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/multiface_2.php

This website for example uses the EMU1616m as their measurement baseline:
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/about.php

They also measure other PCI(E) soundcards:
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/catalog-reports.php?sp_1=3&tp=1

I see something pretty good:
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/title-report.php?id=843&page=amp-creative-x-fi

...but forget about the card above, it is discontinued, here is the current offering:
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/creative-sound-blaster-ae-5.php

and the Asus...
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/asus-stx-ii.php

but this one seems much better!!!
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/asus-strix-raid-pro.php

 

[Sythrix]

There are external PCI(E), CardBus and ExpressCard audio interfaces... historically.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/emu-1616m
http://www.creative.com/emu/products/product.aspx?pid=19007

http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdspe_expresscard.php
http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdsp_pci_e_interface.php
http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/multiface_2.php

This website for example uses the EMU1616m as their measurement baseline:
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/about.php

They also measure other PCI(E) soundcards:
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/catalog-reports.php?sp_1=3&tp=1

I see something pretty good:
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/title-report.php?id=843&page=amp-creative-x-fi
View attachment 15003
...but forget about the card above, it is discontinued, here is the current offering:
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/creative-sound-blaster-ae-5.php

and the Asus...
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/asus-stx-ii.php

but this one seems much better!!!
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/asus-strix-raid-pro.php

I'm not certain to what extent they will have an effect, but it is worth noting that the op-amps used in the Strix Raid Pro are all LME49720s, one of the best measuring and most highly regarded op-amps in TI's history. Whereas the default op-amps used in the STX II are the Muses brand, 8820 and 8920.

I have replaced all of the sockets on my card with LME49720 op-amps, but they were all Muses to begin with. I would be interested in the measurements between the two sets. Asus developed something of a partnership with Muses there for a time and their op-amps were present in a lot of Asus products. Personally I don't believe they are as well made as the 49720s, but I could be wrong.

At any rate, Amir should have the Muses I sent him for another purpose, actually from this sound card. If he gets the time when he tests the Asus STX II, he can swap back to the default configuration of 2x Muses 8920 for the I/V and 1x 8820 for the buffer, as I will make sure he has access to the other additional two that came with the card (8920 and 8820) so he can do whatever configuration he wants.

 

[bennetng]

I'm not certain to what extent they will have an effect, but it is worth noting that the op-amps used in the Strix Raid Pro are all LME49720s, one of the best measuring and most highly regarded op-amps in TI's history. Whereas the default op-amps used in the STX II are the Muses brand, 8820 and 8920.

I have replaced all of the sockets on my card with LME49720 op-amps, but they were all Muses to begin with. I would be interested in the measurements between the two sets. Asus developed something of a partnership with Muses there for a time and their op-amps were present in a lot of Asus products. Personally I don't believe they are as well made as the 49720s, but I could be wrong.

At any rate, Amir should have the Muses I sent him for another purpose, actually from this sound card. If he gets the time when he tests the Asus STX II, he can swap back to the default configuration of 2x Muses 8920 for the I/V and 1x 8820 for the buffer, as I will make sure he has access to the other additional two that came with the card (8920 and 8820) so he can do whatever configuration he wants.

Yeah, these results looked pretty abnormal to me. I also suspect that something were wrong with the soundcard's driver or the settings in their setup.

Anyway, I also read some horrible results in some devices, for example:
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/nuforce-udac.php
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/steinberg-ur22.php

 

[rdodev]

In all of the audiophile stack nothing gives me the sense of being sold snake oil than DACs (and don't get me started with "audiophile grade" USB cables) -- specially the higher end. The components they use from processors to dsp chips, etc cost a few bucks a piece (and easily less than that when bought in lots of 1000). I'm willing to wager a tear down and component pricing of high-end ($1500+) DACs to be around $150-200: a 750-900% mark-up (not counting for marketing, R&D, and other cost-of-business, of course). Yes, there are shoddy DACs that distort/flutter, but any self-respecting audio manufacturer (this includes RealTek and Creative) produce competent DACs at a fraction of the price in the form of a sound card.

 

[Sythrix]

In all of the audiophile stack nothing gives me the sense of being sold snake oil than DACs (and don't get me started with "audiophile grade" USB cables) -- specially the higher end. The components they use from processors to dsp chips, etc cost a few bucks a piece (and easily less than that when bought in lots of 1000). I'm willing to wager a tear down and component pricing of high-end ($1500+) DACs to be around $150-200: a 750-900% mark-up (not counting for marketing, R&D, and other cost-of-business, of course). Yes, there are shoddy DACs that distort/flutter, but any self-respecting audio manufacturer (this includes RealTek and Creative) produce competent DACs at a fraction of the price in the form of a sound card.

I think the concept of snake oil only really applies when the purported benefits of the product in question has no scientific links to the desired outcome and no readily available means to confirm its authenticity.

DACs are trying to produce analog conversions and the way in which they do that is measured here. How well they do it can vary immensely.

Yes, many DACs are overpriced for what they offer and no, we probably don't have the magic ears to hear the difference... but given the fact that we can in fact measure these changes and appreciate the fact that some do their job far better than others, I would argue they do not fall into the classification of "snake oil".

I appreciate quality engineering and the time it takes to correct many of the imperfections that can be encountered within a DAC.

 

[Sal1950]

DACs are trying to produce analog conversions and the way in which they do that is measured here. How well they do it can vary immensely.

But the way in which they sound, if performing in a reasonable manner, doesn't vary in any easily detectable manner. Those that make the big claims otherwise have never proved so with supportable evidence that I'm aware of. The evidence must exist in a bias controlled DBT repeatable manner.
Very expensive packaging is well worth it's cost if that's what your willing to pay for but doesn't make em sound any different.

 

[Sythrix]

Those that make the big claims otherwise have never proved so with supportable evidence that I'm aware of.

No, and certainly some marketing by some manufacturers can be considered snake oil: "Velvet Sound" anyone? But the concept that all expensive DACs are snake oil because of an anecdote? It takes a lot of time and engineering to make them objectively better.

But we weren't talking about marketing, we were talking about the DACs themselves. I'm sorry but the statement is too broad.