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Do speakers with good off-axis response require less acoustic treatment at first reflection point?

localhost128

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I can’t find it right now, but Matthew Poes & Gene did a video on their Audioholics channel that touched on this. Matthew stated that since acoustic panels (the canvas type) aren’t true full-range, you thus would be altering the tonailty, and that when it hits at extreme angles, the fabric of the panels actually mess the sound up a bit.

any example of a non-broadband (ie, thin) porous absorber being applied at a sidewall to attenuate/absorb/remove a first-order indirect specular reflection (should the decision be chosen to do so) will modify the spectral content of the reflection and thus change the tonality as it effectively functions as a low-pass filter (coloring or "EQ'ing" the reflection).

this is a simple example of operator error.

any discussion of attenuating (either by absorption, diffusion, or redirection) of sidewall reflections should be made with the assumption that the device procured or designed is effectively broadband across the specular region.
 

localhost128

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The crux of the matter is, absoption may actually be welcome to get the reverb times in check. So a step forward in RTxx comes with a step back in tonality. You would thus want absorption that is as constant over frequency as possible, which is easier said than done. This is barely ever specified for panels - and how would you even measure it anyway? I mean, sticking a speaker in a chamber lined with the stuff should paint a clear enough picture but hardly makes for standard testing conditions, does it?

small acoustical spaces deal with localized indirect soundfields, not statistical. there is no exponentially-rising, exponentially-decaying reverberant sound-field that develops above the ambient noise floor. reverberation time (RT60) has pre-requisites that must be met in order for the calculation to be considered valid. if there is no existance of a reverberation time, no critical-distance, ie, no well-mixed diffuse sound-field, then RT60 is not applicable.

an absorber placed at a sidewall to attenuate an indirect specular first-order reflection is a surgical application of treatment to attenuate a specific indirect signal that impedes the listening position based on source/receiver positions with respect to room geometry.

absorption is small acoustical spaces (home residential-sized rooms) is not placed statistically to bring down reverberation times. the physical sound-field does not exist.
 

detlev24

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localhost128

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If you have a speaker with a good off axis response you have options. If you absorb the sound at the first reflection you will get more focus but lose some envelopment. In audiophile terms you might get better imaging but lose a wider sound stage. If you have no absorption you get a wider sound stage. With diffusion you often get an even wider soundstage, depends on type of diffusion. But you can get incredible envelopment with diffusion. If you use combo panels one can have the best of both worlds. The reality is with wider dispersion speakers you can tailor the sound to your liking by using various types of acoustic treatment or not.

per toole, if the loudspeaker has poor off-axis response then the sidewall reflection should be attenuated/absorbed.

if the loudspeaker has good off-axis response, then it is up to the user's tastes or subjective preferences. although if for objective accuracy, the high-gain early-reflections that are destructive to intelligibility, accuracy, and localization will need to be attenuated.

however your statement about losing envelopment is misguided. far too many ignore the later-arriving sound-field when modifying small room acoustics of a 2ch stereo reproduction room. if the early reflections are attenuated, then that extends the ISD-gap which will provide a psycho-acoustically larger size of the room (since it will take longer time before any significant indirect energy impedes the listening position). the reproduction room will sound larger and allow one to hear more of the recording/tracking room ambience. attenuating the sidewall reflections is but one step, the other is to re-introduce lateral energy as a later-arriving sound-field to provide that passive envelopment. this is done by the introduction of 1-dimensional phase grating diffusers on the rear/rear-side wall, of which spatially disperse specular energy in a diffuse and exponentially-decaying manner for envelopment and spaciousness.

so when someone insists that attenuating first-order reflections removes spaciousness or envelopment, it is solely because the later-arriving sound-field is not addressed/managed. this is a case of operator erorr. the entire time-domain response should be viewed as a system of individual components. removing first-order lateral energy will assist with maintaining accuracy of the direct signal and increasing perceived size of the reproduction room (increasing imaging and localization), but significant energy must be reintroduced at a later time and from the lateral direction to provide that envelopment from the rear/rear-side wall directions.

for other subjective tastes, diffusion at sidewalls can be useful if they attenuation the reflections such that they are not keyed on by the ear-brain for localization, imaging, etc. gain, direction, time-delay, etc all are relevant.
 
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localhost128

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Early Reflections Are Not Beneficial by Ethan Winer

and as linked in the article:

Creating a Reflection-Free Zone: Improve your imaging

====
Now, if somebody likes the effects which are caused by reflections, that's a totally different story and nothing to argue about. :)

ethan blatantly stole Peter D'Antonio's trade-marked Reflection Free Zone. not only that but he completely misses the requirements for the later-arriving sound-field - just as how his information for early reflections being not beneficial for certain aspects directly taken from the work of Don Davis, syn-aud-con, and the LEDE design.



About diffusers: https://realtraps.com/diffusor.htm and more in-depth on YouTube

i prefer the work of actual acousticians who were paramount in understanding and further innovation of these such designs. ethan is not one of them.
 
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Chromatischism

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Responding to the OP, as was touched on early in the thread, there are no perfect absorbers, therefore there is currently no way to reduce the level of a reflection in a room without changing its sound in some way. I think that suggests that the ideal is speakers with off-axis sound that matches the on-axis sound as close as possible in character, and sound that attenuates evenly to the sides of the speaker. That way there is no chance of the wall being noticed as a 2nd speaker with a different character, and that the total level of the reflections is reduced. This makes absorbers unnecessary. If needing to use them, thicker is generally better.
 
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localhost128

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Responding to the OP, as was touched on early in the thread, there are no perfect absorbers, therefore there is currently no way to reduce the level of a reflection in a room without changing its sound in some way. I think that suggests that the ideal is speakers with off-axis sound that matches the on-axis sound as close as possible in character, and sound that attenuates evenly to the sides of the speaker. That way there is no chance of the wall being noticed as a 2nd speaker with a different character, and that the total level of the reflections is reduced. This makes absorbers unnecessary. If needing to use them, thicker is generally better.

one aspect commonly overlooked/not-often-referenced in these discussions is the complex aocustical impedance of the boundary and whether the boundary itself will modify the spectral content of the reflection (should it be left untreated) - and also whether the left/right sidewalls differ in construction design/materials and thus whether the incident energy is not symmetrical.
 

detlev24

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+ https://www.revelspeakers.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-masterCatalog_Harman/default/dw0e982deb/pdfs/Revel_OM_Salon2_Studio2.pdf

etc.

AD2CB06D-B8DA-4843-8940-08D2F82FA0F9.jpeg

addendum:
addendum.png
 
OP
S

Snoochers

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Merry Christmas everyone! Thanks for all these thoughts. Sorry for the delay I disappeared there for a bit.
 

localhost128

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Koeitje

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interesting that the mfg for a a well-measured and subjectively high-performing loudspeaker is recommending (or not explicitly disseuded from doing so) treating sidewall reflection points with broadband porous absorption.
They are saying they did their part in terms of loudspeaker design. The most interesting part is that they recommend a cheap product to use. Also good they make a good point about making sure that you do broadband absorption.
 

JanRSmit

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From a health perspective fibreglass wool is to be avoided. It breaks down over time in small glass "needles" which are bad for your lungs and throat because these needles stick in the surfaces. If it does not matter which material to use (according to Revel) then use something else which has not this problem.
 

tvrgeek

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any example of a non-broadband (ie, thin) porous absorber being applied at a sidewall to attenuate/absorb/remove a first-order indirect specular reflection (should the decision be chosen to do so) will modify the spectral content of the reflection and thus change the tonality as it effectively functions as a low-pass filter (coloring or "EQ'ing" the reflection).

this is a simple example of operator error.

any discussion of attenuating (either by absorption, diffusion, or redirection) of sidewall reflections should be made with the assumption that the device procured or designed is effectively broadband across the specular region.
Full range need to be about 32 feet thick if simple absorption panels. One can use broad band resonators, mass loading multi-layer panels etc.
Spatial content can be handles with as little as 3 inches of OC 407. Cover with a cotton bat and cloth. No airborne fibers. It is that less than two foot reflections that are most of the problem. Yes, it modifies the spectrum. Correctly.
 
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