do single driver full range speakers perform better? Do they sound different compared to 2 way etc speakers?

[mononoaware]

Hi,
I recently started experimenting with and purchased "full-range" Fostex drivers so here is some input about the drivers in a small back-loaded horn cabinet in particular.

I agree with some of the replies so I will address them as I go.

In a nutshell, they are a "particular use" speaker with the main requirements being:
1. Narrow speaker placement in a small room
2. Low level (SPL) near-field listening
3. Only realistic with acoustic instrument/vocal music.

The driver's I purchased are the most recent generation 10cm (3.9-inch) Fostex FE103NV.
Apparently they are now manufactured in china, previous generations were made in japan I am not sure when this hand over happened but I have no issue with it.

Edit: Also even with DSP EQ boosting bass below 70hz, the small back-loaded horn speakers are lean in Bass. Even the large Back-loaded horn enclosure is often recommended being paired with a subwoofer.
I am happy to listen to them with lean bass, inside a quiet small room. These are not for those who like bass punch, extension and SPL.

- FE103NV Specifications

The Frequency Response measurement provided by Fostex shows the driver only has its 10khz+ extension when directly on-axis (in front of the speaker). Move 30 degrees off-axis and response starts rolling off above 3khz, and you lose everything above 10khz.
I can confirm the 10khz+ region has very narrow dispersion.
Bass is almost non-existent according to the measurement it is very weak below 200hz.

Fostex's large back-loaded horn cabinet for the previous generation of the driver will improve the missing bass extension.
I do not have this enclosure specifically, but Fostex says bass is extended to 50hz which is similar to a typical modern bookshelf speaker, only the Fostex cabinet takes as much space as a typical modern floor-standing speaker and will have nowhere near as much SPL capability.

1. Narrow Speaker placement in a small room

By having the speakers ~40cm apart with drivers pointing straight into the room, and each driver at eye level aiming just past each ear, I am able to minimise the off-axis losses of high frequencies. In this position each driver is about 5-10 degrees off-axis in this position while sitting 1-1.2m away.

I believe this is how they are supposed to be listened to, in a ultra-concentrated near-field fashion.

Back when my wife lived in Japan, and I used to visit often. Akihabara had many small shops that catered to DIY single driver full range hobbyists.

I wonder if these things were popular in Japan due to their tiny living quarters. These shops were basically booths barely larger than your average office cubicle. My wife's old apartment was the size of my garage.

Yes I think there is a connection to the Fostex driver DIY popularity in Japan. Small living quarters requiring narrow placement, living density requiring low SPL listening.

If you are really fond of "one voice, one acoustic guitar" style music... they're pretty fantastic (especially for $300-400/pr) - for anything outside of that... no. If the signal has any amount of low frequency energy, everything goes sideways - and even if you're over 60... there won't likely be enough HF energy at all.

From my experience with the smaller Fostex FE103NV: with the correct setup (speakers placed a maximum of 40cm apart facing straight forward) I am able to get back the high frequency extension and also slightly extend the Bass with help from DSP EQ.
But I agree they are realistic only with certain music.
With the setup I have it does fine with vocal/acoustic instruments/string instruments and can get away with some well recorded upright double bass.
Where it fails miserably is reproducing a large instrument's scale, such as grand piano/orchestral music/even rock music where that all important kick-drum sounds like it is buried and 1/3th of its true size.
Maybe a large Back-loaded horn cabinet will help with extension, but since SPL is still very limited I highly doubt it would be enough to convince anyone.

2. Low level (SPL) near-field listening

The drivers are not designed to handle much power so I believe they are designed for (ultra)near-field listening at low SPL.
In a larger room with a larger cabinet tuned for bass extension, if you turn up the volume you will probably quickly over-heat and burn the voice coil.

I had them briefly set up in the lounge room for testing about 4m apart. Every time I played music I found myself ending up directly in-front of the either the left or right speaker.

3. Only realistic with acoustic instrument/vocal music.

Addressed after quote above.

-

So my general thought of these speakers is that they are a "charming novelty".
The way they sound best is setup nice and cosy taking up less than half the space of a desk.
Some might conclude a "particular use speaker" is a bad speaker. That's understandable.

The cabinet's are about 1/2 the size of the bookshelf sized studio monitors I have.
So the expectations of the FE103NV are to produce sound at roughly 1/3 scale.
And in that way it is charming, what a small simple speaker can do.
A simple miniature system in dimensions & sound. One step in scale below a bookshelf speaker?

 

[MattHooper]

So called full range drivers are NEVER full range. Physics is their problems see post

+1
Strong, non-PC opinions following:
These are audiophiles affectations. They seem to reproduce voices better than other speakers because that is the only frequency band they pass well, others are filtered ... So yeah! you will hear "that midrange" because there is nothing else to hear ...Yes! You can get some bass from these by the use of complicated enclosures. Those plays like a badly integrated subwoofer...
Not a good solution if you ask me.

I think this is a case where, possibly, another factor is being missed. Especially around forums like this, there's a main emphasis on frequency response (and room response to that effect), so deviations make people dismiss a design.

But this reminds me of those who dismiss horn designs on their frequency response or other colorations, where others can tolerate that aspect because they find the apparent dynamics more life-like. With single driver speakers we are typically talking about high sensitivity speakers, e.g. employing Lowther drivers and the like, and one of the factors many perceive are a more life-like dynamic impression, "micro" dynamic especially, the variation of dynamics between piano notes, guitar finger picking, percussion etc.

When I've listened to these single driver speakers that is often what grabs me. I haven't encountered one yet that didn't sound "too light on it's feet" tonally, not rich enough for my tastes. But the "jump" of dynamics just seems to stand out, a piano or acoustic guitar seems to have a life-like energy more like a real person playing, making other designs sound a bit more sluggish. (And I don't think it's simply an effect of, say, only producing a limited midrange frequency, as this occures with those producing more full range sound...and I've heard plenty of small or "light" sounding multi-way speakers that don't seem to produce the same effect).

So when I listen to may full range driver systems, I find they aren't for me given the limitations and some coloration, but I get why they have a fan base.

 

[Saidera]

Murakami Haruki uses a back load horn speaker JBL branded. I also use single driver stereo speakers, and I would probably benefit from learning how to tweak placement and so on.

 

[escksu]

I have to say it is simply not possible to have a single cone for all range speaker due to laws of physics.

In order to produce high frequency tones (say 15khz), a speaker cone has to vibrate 15,000 times a second. Hence it has to be light. A woofer cone (say 5"), is simply too big and heavy. Even if you get an extremely powerful and lots of power + more turns/thicker wire for the coil, you will run into another problem called rigidity.

No material on earth is perfectly rigid. They all flexes to a certain extent. so, even if you managed to get the voice coil to move in unison, the cone will flex which affects sound reproduction.

Another factot to consider is how size of come affects dispersion of sound waves.

 

[abdo123]

I have to say it is simply not possible to have a single cone full range speaker due to laws of physics.

Headphones say hi

 

[escksu]

Headphones say hi

keyword here is FULL RANGE and SPEAKERS.... in case you dont understand english. Thread title said SPEAKERS, NOT HEADPHONES

SPEAKERS ARE NOT THE SAME AS HEADPHONES

Btw, you will never find a headphone that produces the same bass as a subwoofer.

 

[abdo123]

keyword here is FULL RANGE and SPEAKERS.... in case you dont understand english. Thread title said SPEAKERS, NOT HEADPHONES

SPEAKERS ARE NOT THE SAME AS HEADPHONES

Btw, you will never find a headphone that produces the same bass as a subwoofer.


:Facepalm:

looks like the laws of physics change when the driver is smaller am i rite?

 

[PatentLawyer]

I have Markaudio Tozzi Ones on my desktop. They aren't perfect, but I think they sound fantastic *most* of the time. I think they have some sort of resonance in the low treble/upper midrange that sometimes come through, but other than that they are very revealing and detailed. I have them with a 8" subwoofer crossed around 100Hz. Sounds wonderful in a nearfield application, and they are $160 as a kit.

 

[Frank Dernie]

looks like the laws of physics change when the driver is smaller am i rite?

Its not the size of the driver but the size of the "listening room" which is a few cubic centimeters its and proximity

 

[abdo123]

Its not the size of the driver but the size of the "listening room" which is a few cubic centimeters its and proximity

either way that statement is inaccurate without +/- dB requirement across the entire range. it's not an issue for a driver to produce the entire range, it's an issue to produce the entire range at the same loudness / amplitude.

 

[mononoaware]

Murakami Haruki uses a back load horn speaker JBL branded. I also use single driver stereo speakers, and I would probably benefit from learning how to tweak placement and so on.

Looks like with super tweeter though (and subwoofers? -those enclosures in between).

 

[escksu]

looks like the laws of physics change when the driver is smaller am i rite?

This is ASR and you are telling me you don't know your physics??

 

[Saidera]

I have to relearn physics.

 

[Saidera]

Looks like with super tweeter though (and subwoofers? -those enclosures in between).

Yeah, https://www.analoguefoundation.com/analogue-sound-lifestyle/603/
There's plenty of material in the Japanese internet obviously. I have to say, he can afford much better speakers, but this set from that age has become his standard, and so with non-pro use speakers, it's really about your own taste. I got it wrong though - not single driver.

 

[Saidera]

So I'm sure there is one headphone that produces the same bass as a subwoofer, at least? Subjectively?

 

[tomtoo]

So I'm sure there is one headphone that produces the same bass as a subwoofer, at least? Subjectively?

No, never. Bass you feel with your body. Hard to do this with a regular headphone.
Headphones can go deep, but that sensation from huge masses of moving air they cant give.

 

[Frgirard]

No, never. Bass you feel with your body. Hard to do this with a regular headphone.
Headphones can go deep, but that sensation from huge masses of moving air they cant give.

with four 18" and a strong spl or a diatone d-80 or d-160, you can feel.
or
with the head near the drivers but.....

On the headphone.
the major difference between speaker/sub and headphone is the pressure dominance.
the major difference between speaker/sub and headphone is the low decay in bass frequency.

 

[tomtoo]

with four 18" and a strong spl or a diatone d-80 or d-160, you can feel.....

Hähä i think with this equipment even a dead can feel .

 

[Frgirard]

With that, perhaps

https://holonor.com/#

 

[dasdoing]

I have the fostex 6301

damn. You still have it? I am thinking about using them high passed in combo with my sub