Diminishing returns in the higher end

[mwmkravchenko]

I didn’t know (and don’t care) how much the Magico costs - it looks like something a bomb squad might use to safely detonate explosives, not something for a human living room. I only mentioned it as one of several examples of commercial products using a specific brand of drive unit.

However, your assertion is clearly and obviously wrong. Nine non-functional refrigerators in a room would be even uglier than the Magico sub. Also I expect that if one dropped the wood JTRs on the thick aluminum Magico from some height, the metal subs may be dented but the wood subs would be demolished.

And a good example of an underhung motor design. It can be bettered. As in the motor can be made a little longer and the soft parts made to accommodate a greater excursion capability. But that stops being realistic after about 40mm one way excursion.

Now that brings me to my other favourite point of diminishing returns.

Loudspeakers and subwoofers.

Why try to press and underequipped loudspeaker to do bass of any kind? If you have a clean enough subwoofer driver ( not as common as you may like to think ) You can easily crossover a subwoofer with an 8th order high pass and lowpass at 160 hertz. The gain in this endeavour? much more impact in the bass. Much cleaner midrange and lower midrange and a much happier wide range amplifier. And no if your sub is not of the one note thuddite camp, you will not be able to localize where the subwoofer is. I have done this for well over a decade and if I don't tell people they don't know. But the caveat is that you need a very clean subwoofer. That means low distortion and very low harmonics.

 

[Pdxwayne]

And a good example of an underhung motor design. It can be bettered. As in the motor can be made a little longer and the soft parts made to accommodate a greater excursion capability. But that stops being realistic after about 40mm one way excursion.

Now that brings me to my other favourite point of diminishing returns.

Loudspeakers and subwoofers.

Why try to press and underequipped loudspeaker to do bass of any kind? If you have a clean enough subwoofer driver ( not as common as you may like to think ) You can easily crossover a subwoofer with an 8th order high pass and lowpass at 160 hertz. The gain in this endeavour? much more impact in the bass. Much cleaner midrange and lower midrange and a much happier wide range amplifier. And no if your sub is not of the one note thuddite camp, you will not be able to localize where the subwoofer is. I have done this for well over a decade and if I don't tell people they don't know. But the caveat is that you need a very clean subwoofer. That means low distortion and very low harmonics.

All this with just one sub?

 

[richard12511]

However, your assertion is clearly and obviously wrong.

This statement is incorrect. It depends on the criteria.

If your criteria (like mine)is strictly performance, then my assertion is correct. Size is of no concern to me in my main room.
If your criteria is how small it is and how well it does in a terminal velocity drop test, then my assertion is not correct, and your statement is true .

Different people have different criteria they use to evaluation subwoofers. Also, my criteria changes based on the room. In my main room, my criteria is strictly CEA2010 performance/cost. In the guest rooms and my office, I'm much more concerned about physical size.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

All this with just one sub?

Yes. Central location between the speakers, or if you want to use two, two reasonably close to the speakers.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Yes. Central location between the speakers, or if you want to use two, two reasonably close to the speakers.

I see. In my case, central location is not possible due to entertainment center in the middle. Thus would need two subs....

 

[mwmkravchenko]

I see. In my case, central location is not possible due to entertainment center in the middle. Thus would need two subs....

Try it with one sub. The key in this is a very steep crossover to the mains and from the mains to the sub. Not all subs have this, but many more do have it now. If you are using a AVR you can stack crossover slopes as well and get a steeper overall crossover slope.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Try it with one sub. The key in this is a very steep crossover to the mains and from the mains to the sub. Not all subs have this, but many more do have it now. If you are using a AVR you can stack crossover slopes as well and get a steeper overall crossover slope.

Just to double check, you do 8th order slope for both low and high pass, am I correct? Thanks!

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Just to double check, you do 8th order slope for both low and high pass, am I correct? Thanks!

Yes.

 

[Descartes]

At these prices esthetics becomes as important as good measurements!

 

[mwmkravchenko]

At these prices esthetics becomes as important as good measurements!

Esthetics and hype. It's a synergy between the reviewers and the manufacturers. When you look at the driver from Seas, Scanspeak and Acuton, Morel to a degree you encompass about 90% of the ultra high end market. It's not to hard to calculate the raw materials cost. And rarelt does this add up to very much.

Now if there is legitimate OEM designed drivers then the costs can be rather high especially in the low volume end of the manufacturing of products. I have done driver designs that cost the manufacturer almost $600 a driver out of the factory in 100pc volumes. That's a whole different ball game.

And finding companies that are both willing and capable of giving the level of fit and finish requited for the premium priced articles is not easy to do. And what they cost to make enclosure products of this quality level is between 4 to 5 time the driver and crossover costs combined.

 

[richard12511]

At these prices esthetics becomes as important as good measurements!

Agreed. I'd love to have high end B&W or Sonus Faber, if only just for the looks.

 

[Descartes]

Agreed. I'd love to have high end B&W or Sonus Faber, if only just for the looks.

Fir me the only high end B&W that I would want is the Nautilus, but at $60,000 MSRP for the pair I think not.

https://www.bowerswilkins.com/home-audio/nautilus

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Fir me the only high end B&W that I would want is the Nautilus, but at $60,000 MSRP for the pair I think not.

https://www.bowerswilkins.com/home-audio/nautilus

Everytime I listen to the Kevlar midranges from B&W I hear them and find them irritating. Same goes for metal dome tweeters.

In fact we have been working with a Beryllium dome tweeter from a good manufacturer that has caused us a lot of fun and games to tame all the resonant issues in the response. Nothing is perfect. No matter the amount of marketing, or the hype surrounding a product. Look for measurements first, and then listen second.

 

[Descartes]

Everytime I listen to the Kevlar midranges from B&W I hear them and find them irritating. Same goes for metal dome tweeters.

In fact we have been working with a Beryllium dome tweeter from a good manufacturer that has caused us a lot of fun and games to tame all the resonant issues in the response. Nothing is perfect. No matter the amount of marketing, or the hype surrounding a product. Look for measurements first, and then listen second.

Yes but to each their own! I used to own B&W 800 Diamonds D2

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Yes but to each their own! I used to own B&W 800 Diamonds D2

This interests me. What did you like about them?

My bias comes from the first driver work that I did in the late 90's. We had to make a Lowther type 6.5 inch and had a choice of cones. Paper composite or kevlar/polyaramide. The Kevlar had quite a colouration to it compared to the paper type cone.

Keeping in mind that there is really no such a thing as a paper cone. They are as serious and art unto themselves as is any other part of loudspeaker design. Carbon fibers, glass fibers epoxies and the like are all a part of the mix as well as different wood pulps.

 

[Jim Matthews]

Keeping in mind that there is really no such a thing as a paper cone. They are as serious and art unto themselves as is any other part of loudspeaker design. Carbon fibers, glass fibers epoxies and the like are all a part of the mix as well as different wood pulps.

I lived with a Bastanis wide and driver (doped paper Eminence 12" guitar driver) for almost three years. I suppose it was treated with commonly available shellac. What it did well was delightful.

What it didn't do was play any meaningful bass (or treble) and suffered long term compression even with the exposed motor.

It was *very* fussy about amplification.

I now see the real advantage in active design; getting predictably good results from a given driver.

What you guys manage with these things today is a revelation.

 

[jokan]

The topic itself is accurate in my experience. No matter how much money you throw at a stereo system, there will be a ceiling on a consumer level and pro-audio level. The underhung woofer topic is very interesting and also accurate. Manufacturers need to be profitable. So they sell and produce items that have a lifespan. They need you to come back at least once in your lifetime to replace something that does the same job.

Audio is a far better hobby than mobiles, and computers that need constantly to be upgraded and replaced. Their lifespan is bordering on the ridiculous. Over $1200USD for a mobile? Sure it's a pocket computer and less of us use them to make actual phone calls, but they aren't built to last that long and the manufacturers all stop supporting their devices after a few years and stop releasing updates. Forcing you to update.

So yes, I believe strongly that there is a point of diminishing returns with Hi-Fi. There is a level of satisfaction that comes with all Hi-Fi gear. And they are a wear part. They will breakdown with age. They won't perform the same as they did when brand new. They also get gaussed.

Enjoy your music and keep listening to music! Keep the industry alive!

 

[mwmkravchenko]

So yes, I believe strongly that there is a point of diminishing returns with Hi-Fi. There is a level of satisfaction that comes with all Hi-Fi gear. And they are a wear part. They will breakdown with age. They won't perform the same as they did when brand new. They also get gaussed.

Enjoy your music and keep listening to music! Keep the industry alive!

The only thing that will get degaussed is perhaps an Alnico magnet. Modern magnets are pretty robust. As long as they are not overheated beyond what is called their Curie point, they will perform well as a magnet.

Alnico has a special place in terms of have the least magnetic field switching distortion. I said that carefully. It's not zero. Just the least. And there are ways to use other magnet types to almost equal effect.

 

[audiofooled]

The topic itself is accurate in my experience. No matter how much money you throw at a stereo system, there will be a ceiling on a consumer level and pro-audio level. The underhung woofer topic is very interesting and also accurate. Manufacturers need to be profitable. So they sell and produce items that have a lifespan. They need you to come back at least once in your lifetime to replace something that does the same job.

Audio is a far better hobby than mobiles, and computers that need constantly to be upgraded and replaced. Their lifespan is bordering on the ridiculous. Over $1200USD for a mobile? Sure it's a pocket computer and less of us use them to make actual phone calls, but they aren't built to last that long and the manufacturers all stop supporting their devices after a few years and stop releasing updates. Forcing you to update.

So yes, I believe strongly that there is a point of diminishing returns with Hi-Fi. There is a level of satisfaction that comes with all Hi-Fi gear. And they are a wear part. They will breakdown with age. They won't perform the same as they did when brand new. They also get gaussed.

Enjoy your music and keep listening to music! Keep the industry alive!

Now that you mention it, planned obsolescence.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Try it with one sub. The key in this is a very steep crossover to the mains and from the mains to the sub. Not all subs have this, but many more do have it now. If you are using a AVR you can stack crossover slopes as well and get a steeper overall crossover slope.

Could you name a few brands and models that meet your requirements. I'd like to know since none of us can test every sub to find the real gems out there. Thanks!