Denon AVR-X6800H now released.

[peng]

Denon X6800H 4-sub question

If I simply run the FL and FR as ‘full range’, and only utilise 2 of the four .4 outputs on the AVR, does that then limit what I can do with the ‘four’ subwoofers? Do I still get LFE to all 4 subs? Can the X6800H do LFE distribution? With this setup, I suppose that the sub-bass frequencies in the FL and FR program content will no longer be distributed to 4 subs, in which case, the benefits of having 4 subs will not apply to all the bass content in the FL and FR program content? That seems a bit less than ideal to me, don’t you agree?

I don't have the 6800 but I am sure if you run the FL/FR full range, they will get the LFE signal distributed to them. That's been the case for all D+M AVRs since day 1. In some sense, you won't get all of the benefits of using 4 subs because the two "subs" within the FL/FR's locations are fixed, i.e. same as that of the FL/FR towers. Audyssey, or DL will still integrate them with the other two subs, especially of DLBC is used. I would agree ideally it is better to have 4 individual subs so that you can place them in the optimal positions, that is from the low bass standpoint only though.

Alternatively, I could utilise all four of the .4 outputs, by powering the FL and FR active bass drivers from two of the AVR’s subwoofer outputs, and designate their crossover point at 120 Hz. Do you see any big problems with this idea? Does it actually provide any benefits in terms of subwoofer benefits, or flexibility, or utilisation with Audy or Dirac? The only real negative that I thought of, is that I am stuck with the standard AVR crossover slopes at the (120 Hz) XO to subwoofer, whereas using them as a full-range speaker allows me to apply a digital XO and slope of my choice to the next drive unit.

It would then make a difference, but in my opinion, I just can't see much audible difference, assuming you run RC correctly, such as follow instructions to the letter.

Can the X6800H handle both of the above alternatives? Any limitations that would apply? If so, are there any other AVP/AVR units (excluding Storm/Trinnov-like budgets) that could do it better?

What if I try to implement a Multi Sub Optimiser setup? Is one of the above configurations better for this? Is the X6800H suitable?

thanks

I am not sure the second alternative would work (I highly doubt it would) in terms of setting two different crossover to HP the FL/FR's mids/tweeters and LP to the active bass drivers). In the past, ie. before the X3800H through A1H, you can set crossovers on per speaker channel pairs, and center, not per subwoofer as such, but again, with the new 2022-23 models such as the X6800H, you should ask Denon, and Marantz (better ask both as one may give you better and/or quicker response) for a more reliable answer to your specific question. I would imagine the active subs of the FL/FR have their own DSPs, that you could play with, don't they?

 

[Newman]

[Newman's Option 1] I don't have the 6800 but I am sure if you run the FL/FR full range, they will get the LFE signal distributed to them. That's been the case for all D+M AVRs since day 1.

Thanks peng, but in that case what is this thing called "LFE Distribution" that I mentioned, and that people get very excited about when they see it on an affordable AVP/R?

(I listened to Gene's explanation but I still don't get what it is that 'lesser' AV units cannot do.) Especially if you say they can all send LFE to all speakers set as full range.

The above feature is what I am asking about (but now I'm unsure what it even is).

In some sense, you won't get all of the benefits of using 4 subs because the two "subs" within the FL/FR's locations are fixed, i.e. same as that of the FL/FR towers. Audyssey, or DL will still integrate them with the other two subs, especially of DLBC is used. I would agree ideally it is better to have 4 individual subs so that you can place them in the optimal positions, that is from the low bass standpoint only though.

Okay, just to double-check, I was wrong to worry that "the benefits of having 4 subs will not apply to all the bass content in the FL and FR program content". Instead, even with only 2 of the 4 subwoofer outputs being utilised, you reckon that I will get the same benefits as having 4 subs, ie smoother bass over a wider range of seating positions, needing less EQ than 2 subs alone. That's good news for Option 1.

[Newman's Option 2] It would then make a difference, but in my opinion, I just can't see much audible difference, assuming you run RC correctly, such as follow instructions to the letter.

I am not sure the second alternative would work (I highly doubt it would) in terms of setting two different crossover to HP the FL/FR's mids/tweeters and LP to the active bass drivers). In the past, ie. before the X3800H through A1H, you can set crossovers on per speaker channel pairs, and center, not per subwoofer as such, but again, with the new 2022-23 models such as the X6800H, you should ask Denon, and Marantz (better ask both as one may give you better and/or quicker response) for a more reliable answer to your specific question.

I would be shocked and disappointed if one cannot assign different HP for each channel pair and for the centre. Even my 15-yo Yamaha does that.

I would imagine the active subs of the FL/FR have their own DSPs, that you could play with, don't they?

Yes, they would have their own DSPs as part of the digital crossover that I would use in DIY-ing the FL/FR speakers.

thanks

 

[peng]

Thanks peng, but in that case what is this thing called "LFE Distribution" that I mentioned, and that people get very excited about when they see it on an affordable AVP/R?
View attachment 362128
(I listened to Gene's explanation but I still don't get what it is that 'lesser' AV units cannot do.) Especially if you say they can all send LFE to all speakers set as full range.

The above feature is what I am asking about (but now I'm unsure what it even is).

As I mentioned, for the older models, you can always sent LFE signal to the front speakers if they are set to "large".

The new "Distribution" feature now is that you can adjust the amount of LFE signal sent to the full range floor speakers, adjustment can be between -20 dB and 0 dB.

 

[peng]

Okay, just to double-check, I was wrong to worry that "the benefits of having 4 subs will not apply to all the bass content in the FL and FR program content". Instead, even with only 2 of the 4 subwoofer outputs being utilised, you reckon that I will get the same benefits as having 4 subs, ie smoother bass over a wider range of seating positions, needing less EQ than 2 subs alone. That's good news for Option 1.

To be clear, I did not mean you would get the same exact benefits of having 4 individual/separate subs because the subs in the FL/FR active speakers are located in the same enclosures of the tower speakers so you don't have the flexibility of placement that separate subs offer. Other than that, yes you should still get the rest of the benefits for having 4 subs vs 2 subs.

I would be shocked and disappointed if one cannot assign different HP for each channel pair and for the centre. Even my 15-yo Yamaha does that.

Agreed, I would be shocked too, as all past models have the feature to set crossovers for each channel pair and center.

But your question was "Alternatively, I could utilise all four of the .4 outputs, by powering the FL and FR active bass drivers from two of the AVR’s subwoofer outputs, and designate their crossover point at 120 Hz. Do you see any big problems with this idea? "

So, I guess I misunderstood you question, thinking that you wanted to set the crossover for the active FL and FR pair to 120 Hz, and the other two subs to a different XO such as 80 Hz. In that case I don't know if the X6800H has such an option. The older models, as you know, only let you set XO on per channel pairs and center channel, so if you set the FL/FR to 120 Hz, then I would think it will also be 120 Hz LP to the other two subs, but I am not sure so I suggest you ask Denon about it.

 

[dlaloum]

To be clear, I did not mean you would get the same exact benefits of having 4 individual/separate subs because the subs in the FL/FR active speakers are located in the same enclosures of the tower speakers so you don't have the flexibility of placement that separate subs offer. Other than that, yes you should still get the rest of the benefits for having 4 subs vs 2 subs.

Agreed, I would be shocked too, as all past models have the feature to set crossovers for each channel pair and center.

But your question was "Alternatively, I could utilise all four of the .4 outputs, by powering the FL and FR active bass drivers from two of the AVR’s subwoofer outputs, and designate their crossover point at 120 Hz. Do you see any big problems with this idea? "

So, I guess I misunderstood you question, thinking that you wanted to set the crossover for the active FL and FR pair to 120 Hz, and the other two subs to a different XO such as 80 Hz. In that case I don't know if the X6800H has such an option. The older models, as you know, only let you set XO on per channel pairs and center channel, so if you set the FL/FR to 120 Hz, then I would think it will also be 120 Hz LP to the other two subs, but I am not sure so I suggest you ask Denon about it.

For those with full range speakers that are bi-amp-able, I wonder whether better bass management and integration would/could be achieved by running the highs as a limited range (crossed over) speakers, and the lows as a "sub".

The problem is then getting proper integration of the base stereo signal especially for music, rather than the LFE channel which is mostly relevant only for movies...

 

[peng]

For those with full range speakers that are bi-amp-able, I wonder whether better bass management and integration would/could be achieved by running the highs as a limited range (crossed over) speakers, and the lows as a "sub".

The problem is then getting proper integration of the base stereo signal especially for music, rather than the LFE channel which is mostly relevant only for movies...

I wonder about that too, but my feeling is that, having the added bass management flexibility is a good thing, and it can't hurt lol...

 

[Newman]

For those with full range speakers that are bi-amp-able, I wonder whether better bass management and integration would/could be achieved by running the highs as a limited range (crossed over) speakers, and the lows as a "sub".

Yes I think you are describing my Option 2.

The problem is then getting proper integration of the base stereo signal especially for music, rather than the LFE channel which is mostly relevant only for movies...

What would be the difficulty? The fact that all 4 subs will be 'in play'? I get that, but the X6800H has a 'Directional Bass' feature that will direct bass to the sub that is closest to the original channel speaker:-

- X6800H user manual​

 

[Newman]

I guess I misunderstood you question, thinking that you wanted to set the crossover for the active FL and FR pair to 120 Hz, and the other two subs to a different XO such as 80 Hz.

That is actually what I mean. And now I see what is the point you are making, thanks.

In that case I don't know if the X6800H has such an option.

OK thanks.

 

[Newman]

As I mentioned, for the older models, you can always sent LFE signal to the front speakers if they are set to "large".

The new "Distribution" feature now is that you can adjust the amount of LFE signal sent to the full range floor speakers, adjustment can be between -20 dB and 0 dB.

OK I just now found that the X6800H does have that. From the manual:-

 

[Oddball]

I am using both LFE+Main setting and LFE distribution on my AV-10 to 6 towers I use for bed channels. Center also good to 30hz, but keeping it focused on center channel. Perhaps explained in various answers above, but just to share my experience.

1. Setting your LR to full-range will send all LR signal to these speakers (via their regular speaker posts). If you choose LFE only output option, other subs will get none of the low-end signal from LR and will play LFE plus lower than crossover setting from other channels.

2. You can also send LFE signal to your LR (via regular speaker posts) set as full range and enable that feature in LFE distribution settings with ability to set the signal level from -20dB to 0dB in 2dB increments. From my experience (have not found any official source), LFE distribution is before LFE gets 10dB bump. Not sure if the below-crossover signal from other channels is also being shared. My best bet is not as that could introduce additional significant load to the distributed channels.

3. In addition to above, if you enable LFE+Main output option, you can set the "crossover" (really a 12 dB low pass filter) and share the the below crossover bass from full range channels into the LFE/subs. Settings are 40/60/80 etc. hz. You can use this to blend your LR and subs like in traditional crossover scenario, or to overlap them for the additional SPL/smoothing of response in the overlap area. The latter is controversial and generally labled as "bad" practice, despite the fact that has been around for quite a while.

4. LFE will only have one setting for limiting the frequency of the LFE output, and it will apply to all LFE channels. You could set that to 120hz (due to your mains) and then on the 2 "real" subs (if they have that setting), you could chose 80hz. I find 80hz a bit low but also don't like subs to roam beyond 100hz, so cut it off pretty steep after that. Full range speakers don't have a crossover and get full range signal, but that could be EQd per below.

If you feed your LR LFE signal directly from the LFE inputs, and set the sub crossover to 120hz, you would be effectively doing the similar thing as if you have chosen 1+2, but you would get the 10dB bump on LFE as it comes fully mixed. That signal should have the lower than crossover signal from LR and other crossed channels as well.

In addition to the above, Audyssey MultiEQ-X will give you additional control for all your speakers and will use the above settings but limit them to the EQ range you set, and apply the curves to the specific channel that you selected with all of the signal they are getting from above functions.

Hope that above helps.

EDIT:

Just to add directional bass - it does not seem to work for many. All subs play LFE but the ones closest to the directional block get to play the below crossover signal from other speakers in that directional block. So you effectively loose the SPL and response smoothing for the below crossover signal from individual channels, while potentially gaining some directivity in that bass signal. Many don't find this a fair trade.

 

[Newman]

if you enable LFE+Main output option… You can use this to blend your LR and subs like in traditional crossover scenario, or to overlap them for the additional SPL/smoothing of response in the overlap area. The latter is controversial and generally labled as "bad" practice, despite the fact that has been around for quite a while.

Thanks for your entire post, Oddball. As an aside, the “bad” practice, above, is specifically recommended by Earl Geddes.

 

[Oddball]

Thanks for your entire post, Oddball. As an aside, the “bad” practice, above, is specifically recommended by Earl Geddes.

I have been using it for ages as well and love it - but always put a disclaimer that this is borderline dark side

 

[-Matt-]

Denon have released a firmware update that hopefully addresses the LG and Samsung audio dropouts...

https://support-uk.denon.com/app/an...latest-heos-app-and-firmware-update-available

 

[patoulol]

Since the last update I can no longer access the Setup menu. And you ?

 

[KenMasters]

Since the last update I can no longer access the Setup menu. And you ?

Everything works as it should for me.

 

[dave999z]

I imagine it will be some months at least before Amir will be able to measure and review the 6800?

Really looking forward to seeing that.

Also, how long before we’d see any kind of a sale on this new model? Black Friday?

 

[-Matt-]

Since the last update I can no longer access the Setup menu. And you ?

First thing to check is can you still access the menu via the physical buttons and display on the device? If so, it could be just the onscreen gui that has stopped working. In order for that to work "Video Conversion" has to be enabled.

On my AVR (not a 6800) you go:
Setup > Video > Output Settings > Video Conversion.

Perhaps the update turned this off?

 

[lewdish]

anyone have one to send to amir yet?

 

[SlaughterX]

Denon have released a firmware update that hopefully addresses the LG and Samsung audio dropouts...

https://support-uk.denon.com/app/an...latest-heos-app-and-firmware-update-available

View attachment 362964

Is this coming for the 3700/6700 too? I swear I have been having this issue forever and it's been driving me crazy!

 

[tmukh]

Since the last update I can no longer access the Setup menu. And you ?

Likewise for me. However, the issue is random and I’ve noticed it happens more often if you try to access the settings menu when no other HDMI source (such as Blu-ray player or Apple TV) is turned on.