Denon AVR-X3800H is released.

[napfkuchen]

So this is the earliest you could have the review.

The delay is not acceptable

 

[peng]

The PCM5102A (can't find a 5102S) is a stereo part, so are you saying both DACs in each chip are used per one AVR channel in some kind of an interleaved oversampling mode?
In qty. 100, the price of this part is about $4.50-4.90, compared to about $24.80 for ESS9026PRO, which has 8 channels and is used in the A6A/A8A. So if indeed at least 8 PCM5102As are used in the 3800H, it must have been a very sweet deal, or there was an insufficient availability of the ESS part for the expected production volume of this AVR.

Sorry, that was a typo, of course it is the 5102A. I am just saying that the 3800 would have about 8 pcs of the PCM5102A and more for the 4800, 6800 and the corresponding Marantz models, so D+M have to purchase a huge numbers especially when including the very similar 5101 used for Z2/Z3 and network. As such they should be able to negotiate with TI for a much better deal than those who only need qty.100 or even 5,000. That's not speculation but a fact of life.

The PCM1795 (8 channel IC) has about the same SINAD as the AK4458 but much better SNR/DR actually costs less on per channel basis and it was used in the Marantz AV8801 and Denon AVR-4520, so D+M is experienced in implementing that chip. That's another reason why I think D+M somehow got an irresistible deal from TI, who might have tons of those 32 bit but low SINAD PCM5100 series chips. Again, all we can do is to speculate, because it is puzzling why D+M would go with such a low spec (relatively speaking) stereo DAC IC unless in doing so they could lower the cost.

 

[voodooless]

The PCM1795 (8 channel IC)

It’s not. It’s a stereo DAC. TI has no (active) 8-channel DAC’s that compete with AK4458 on THD.

 

[lc6]

According to the French preso, the X3800H, X4800H and X6700H each have 8 pcs. of PCM5102A; only the X8500HA and A1H use ESS parts (but not of the highest PRO tier, as in the A6A/A8A). So if those TI DACs were the dominant source of the subpar measured performance of the X3800H in pre-amp mode, the same should have come out of the X6700H's measurements. But it did not (~99.5 dB SINAD in the second unit @amirm tested). So how do you explain that?

 

[delta76]

According to the French preso, the X3800H, X4800H and X6700H each have 8 pcs. of PCM5102A; only the X8500HA and A1H use ESS parts (but not of the highest PRO tier, as in the A6A/A8A). So if those TI DACs were the dominant source of the subpar measured performance of the X3800H in pre-amp mode, the same should have come out of the X6700H's measurements. But it did not (~99.5 dB SINAD in the second unit @amirm tested). So how do you explain that?

those were measured before the fire so they probably most likely used AKM chip

 

[peng]

It’s not. It’s a stereo DAC. TI has no (active) 8-channel DAC’s that compete with AK4458 on THD.

My mistake, thank you.

 

[lc6]

those were measured before the fire so they probably most likely used AKM chip

That's plausible; if true, it would also imply that the current X6700Hs using PCM5102As have inferior performance, on par with that of the X3800Hs. It would be interesting to see updated measurements.

 

[minus3dB]

The PCM5102A (can't find a 5102S) is a stereo part, so are you saying both DACs in each chip are used per one AVR channel in some kind of an interleaved oversampling mode?
In qty. 100, the price of this part is about $4.50-4.90, compared to about $24.80 for ESS9026PRO, which has 8 channels and is used in the A6A/A8A. So if indeed at least 8 PCM5102As are used in the 3800H, it must have been a very sweet deal, or there was an insufficient availability of the ESS part for the expected production volume of this AVR.

I thought it was interesting that in looking at all of TI's 2 channel DAC offerings, all have a THD+N of -93dB and the only ones with a higher SNR (by 2 dB) cost nearly twice as much. Those have twice the output with balanced outputs at 4.2 v and appear to have some additional features...but ballpark, similar performance.

 

[minus3dB]

Sorry, that was a typo, of course it is the 5102A. I am just saying that the 3800 would have about 8 pcs of the PCM5102A and more for the 4800, 6800 and the corresponding Marantz models, so D+M have to purchase a huge numbers especially when including the very similar 5101 used for Z2/Z3 and network. As such they should be able to negotiate with TI for a much better deal than those who only need qty.100 or even 5,000. That's not speculation but a fact of life.

The PCM1795 (8 channel IC) has about the same SINAD as the AK4458 but much better SNR/DR actually costs less on per channel basis and it was used in the Marantz AV8801 and Denon AVR-4520, so D+M is experienced in implementing that chip. That's another reason why I think D+M somehow got an irresistible deal from TI, who might have tons of those 32 bit but low SINAD PCM5100 series chips. Again, all we can do is to speculate, because it is puzzling why D+M would go with such a low spec (relatively speaking) stereo DAC IC unless in doing so they could lower the cost.

The AVM-90 uses the ES9038PRO DAC chip if I recall correctly. That's fitting of a $7500 AVP. It will be interesting to see if D&M match that or come reasonably close with the A1H and AV10. I suspect (pure guess) that the switch to 2 channel DAC chips may have had something to do with board layout (puts the chip physically close to the output jacks) so I'm not sure what the near top of the line 2 channel ESS chip is if that in fact was why they made the change from 8 channel to 2 channel DAC chips.

As far as the irresistible deal theory goes, if TI gave them to D&M for free there are still other chips out there that can be had for between $1-$2 in quantity that perform better. So $8-$16 cost per production unit difference. Is that a real needle mover in a BOM for a $1700 product? I don't know, maybe it is.

 

[Descartes]

2024 before Denon or Marantz receive the new Dirac Live Active Room Treatment, so maybe by then they will have better DACs