Got it, you're just calling bullshit. Have you demoed the Ares DAC?
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Denafrips Ares II - is it really worth it?
- Thread starter dogonelder
- Start date
So, what do I accomplish from this exercise? If you're tying to tell me DACs and AMPs don't matter if the levels are matched, I can't agree with that.Serious lighthearted response preparing you for what comes nextThis story is playing out here on ASR on a regular basis with similar outcome.
This is critical and you will get good schooling on that here by real smart and educated electric engineers (me not included in the category). I've went through my own rounds of comparisons between DACs and power amplifiers as many others in this forum. The universally shared experience is that after volume matching up to 0.1dB precision and having someone connect a random A/B configuration, all differences heard before disappear. When comparing properly functioning and sufficiently powered gear without obvious flaws that is. I challenge you to experience for yourself. This community will help you with good advice on how to properly perform it. Keep a thick skin for a tiny amount of mockery which you will inevitably encounter and sincerely apologize for mine.
Volume matching quick reference:
REW - Generator - Sine wave 1kHz - oscilloscope to measure voltage at speaker or headphone terminal ($50 at amazon). You'll need to have means to adjust gain separately of each device in 0.1db increments. Most DACs can adjust volume by 0.5dB and that's not precise enough.
I'm really curious to hear someone's subjective comparison of Ares 2 properly compared with Delta-Sigma DAC.
I'm saying they sound sufficiently similar that you won't be able to recognize which one is which when comparing blindly level-matched. It's a verifiable statement. I verified it myself. You are welcome to verify it, if you wish. Science is when you make a hypothesis and then do an experiment to prove or disprove it.
I "hear" you. But the DX7 Pro & Ares II don't sound similar in my system, that was the point of my post.
Interesting forum y'all have here, I guess I'll be moving on. I popped in because I was loving my new Ares DAC, but you're here to shut down the thread about a component you've never heard?
Great - I'm sincerely really interested in trying to figure out if Ares 2 sounds same or different than a good AKM or ESS chip DAC. To get my answer though I would need to either perform myself or see the results of a properly performed comparison between DACs.
It's not an easy task btw from my direct experience, there are many traps in which I had fallen into myself:
- It may seem that it's not a big deal that volume matching wasn't done, but it is a huge deal - differences in volume up to 0.2dB are perceivable by almost everyone and when you focus your attention to a certain aspect of the sound this difference is perceived as a qualitative improvement of that aspect due to the slight volume difference.
- It might feel that you can compare sounds when heard a minute or more apart, but we know from well performed scientific research that human's audio memory is very short and if you want to hear differences in tonality, soundstage and such, we need quick switching, at most 5 seconds apart, ideally instant.
- It might feel that when we guessed which one is which 2 times in a row we certainly can recognize them, but statistically this is not significant.
DSJR
Major Contributor
Just my take here!
The OP has a pretty basic vinyl source and a very safe sounding if not bland sounding pickup cartridge fitted (I've known and sold Rega since 1976 or so and have known the DL110 for not much less time). PLEASE don't judge available source quality on this turntable system...
For myself, I'd get a Schiit Modi 3+ and put the difference towards a better vinyl source (a Planar 6/Neo really can sound a touch better here - fit an AT540 or a 2M Bronze) or maybe one of the new wave of transparent amplifiers with no audiophile story to tell (I've not been a fan of the recent Creek amps I've heard - too veiled for my tastes and I suspect it's clearly measurable too...)
The OP has a pretty basic vinyl source and a very safe sounding if not bland sounding pickup cartridge fitted (I've known and sold Rega since 1976 or so and have known the DL110 for not much less time). PLEASE don't judge available source quality on this turntable system...
For myself, I'd get a Schiit Modi 3+ and put the difference towards a better vinyl source (a Planar 6/Neo really can sound a touch better here - fit an AT540 or a 2M Bronze) or maybe one of the new wave of transparent amplifiers with no audiophile story to tell (I've not been a fan of the recent Creek amps I've heard - too veiled for my tastes and I suspect it's clearly measurable too...)
Thanks f1. Our brains are always getting in the way no matter how much "audio science" we do
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Guide on how to buy DACs:
1. Ignore everyone and everything you've seen online about DACs offering soundstage, clarity, or some kind of magical experience. It is scientifically verifiable nonsense.
2. Click here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_Equipment_Reviews/
3. Change "Type" to DAC (Dedicated) (or DAC (multifunction) if you want a combo unit)
4. Click on the latest review date to see the review of the latest product
5. Scroll down to the image that compares the latest reviewed product to all other reviewed products in that category (hint, this is what you're looking for as of 04/03/22: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/best-balanced-dac-png.138792/)
6. Ignore all products that are not near the top of the list. Only buy products that are blue.
7. Look up the review of products near the top of the list on ASR and elsewhere to determine if the product has the power, features, inputs/outputs, aesthetics, price, availability etc. according to what is important to you. Make your way down the list starting at the top until you find something that fits your criteria
8. Buy the product
9. Be happy you have finally escaped the nine circles of audiophile hell. Fervently chastise those who suggest or tell you otherwise
10. Enjoy your music
There are other sites such as l7audiolab.com and goldensound.audio that have measurements that might not be on ASR yet. If there's a product you are interested in that might not be measured on ASR, you can compare the measurements with those on other sites.
1. Ignore everyone and everything you've seen online about DACs offering soundstage, clarity, or some kind of magical experience. It is scientifically verifiable nonsense.
2. Click here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_Equipment_Reviews/
3. Change "Type" to DAC (Dedicated) (or DAC (multifunction) if you want a combo unit)
4. Click on the latest review date to see the review of the latest product
5. Scroll down to the image that compares the latest reviewed product to all other reviewed products in that category (hint, this is what you're looking for as of 04/03/22: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/best-balanced-dac-png.138792/)
6. Ignore all products that are not near the top of the list. Only buy products that are blue.
7. Look up the review of products near the top of the list on ASR and elsewhere to determine if the product has the power, features, inputs/outputs, aesthetics, price, availability etc. according to what is important to you. Make your way down the list starting at the top until you find something that fits your criteria
8. Buy the product
9. Be happy you have finally escaped the nine circles of audiophile hell. Fervently chastise those who suggest or tell you otherwise
10. Enjoy your music
There are other sites such as l7audiolab.com and goldensound.audio that have measurements that might not be on ASR yet. If there's a product you are interested in that might not be measured on ASR, you can compare the measurements with those on other sites.
Currently I am using the MOTU M4. As I have been overseas away home for a long time, I needed a combo DAC/interface/amp that performed well and could take the abuse of being thrown around and manhandled, so it was perfect for my use case, cheap, and one of the best products in its class. I would like to buy something nicer in the near future when I am settled down, and waiting for a nice balanced combo unit since I prefer them for desk use versus a separate head amp/DAC stack. If I was going to buy a separate DAC today it would be the D90/D90SE, Okto dac8 stereo, or a minidsp product. As far as combo units go I'd buy something along the line of RME ADI-2 Pro, Topping MX5. Personally I'm waiting for Topping or one of the other Chinese companies to come out with more TOTL combo units.
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I haven’t had the Ares here but Amir has measured it and it is a good implementation of its type.
www.audiosciencereview.com
Keith
Denafrips ARES II USB R2R DAC Review
This is a review and measurements of the Denafrips ARES II USB DSD DAC based on R2R architecture. It is on kind loan from a member. I think it costs US $680 so not too high for a custom DAC. The overall look of the ARES II is rather plain: The LED indicators are quite tiny so standing top...
www.audiosciencereview.com
About audibility of differences in DACs - we are essentially looking for two unicorns to meet - a pair of transparent measuring DACs that for some inexplicable reason sound different within a perceptual threshold and a highly gifted and experienced listener who can hear that difference. Amir's stories of his work on compression codecs in Microsoft is a great example of how hard this whole area of perceptual audibility of signal differences is.
The ARES II is not a bad product. It performs well and is audibly transparent for CD quality audio (flat fr, low distortion, >96 SINAD, proper output level). There are simply products that outperform it from an engineering perspective at much less cost. The difference in perceived quality/audibility between it and a better performing product will be effectively zero. If I can say anything bad about it is that the low-pass is not ideal from what Amir found in his review and it seemingly has no volume control on the unit itself. The mute button is a nice feature and I think it looks nice overall. If one is buying this over another better measuring or cheaper product know that you are paying for a nicer chassis/brand name etc., not any kind of "R2R magic" or better sound quality. Similar "boutique" niche products oftentimes cost much more so I would say the price is competitive within that niche but not very competitive overall when say many Topping products crushes the performance. Or you can add an extra 1-2 hundred dollars and have a professional grade RME product with built in headamp, EQ, and tons of other useful features. But the RME might not look good in your living room. We don't need to guess or assume the Denafrips or any other good R2R DAC will sound different when many people have independently measured this DAC within its operation parameters with equipment that is much more sensitive than one's ears.
