Dante AVIO Review (streaming audio interfaces)

[ctcwired]

Latency spikes should not happen, unless the switch's chipset is total garbage or there is routing in the middle (and again, with a poorly underscaled router).

This isn't quite the case. Many non-realtime OSes (Windows, macOS) tend to buffer and vomit full size frames onto the network, in bursts. If there's no QoS, this can lead to latency spikes (on the order of 500 - 1000μs) on a shared switch link further down the chain. Even if the connection isn't quite maxed, just the process of scaling TCP window sizes around involves hitting many types of choke points on a network. This is never an issue for PC users of course but a Dante system might care if you're targeting very low latencies. So even if you have internet with only say 20mbps upload, and your LAN is gigabit... the process of initially starting an upload (lets say speedtest.net starts an upload test) the computer will often spike the PHY rate in several spots, before the speed settles and the packets coming into the switch become more evenly spaced out.

DSCP flags resolve this problem almost entirely, and is one of the reasons they recommend a switch with such feature.

In comparison, AVB switches handle this on an even lower layer, by reserving "Time Domains" with a scheduler that can guarantee packets flow in an exact expected timeframe, achieving microsecond consistency, making it useful for SDI video systems that need genlock as well.

That all said, this is getting very nitty-gritty, and in practice on a reasonable switch, following basic guides with default settings you're unlikely to run into an issue.

 

[HerbertWest]

Even if the connection isn't quite maxed, just the process of scaling TCP window sizes around involves hitting many types of choke points on a network.

Dante is UDP though, as far as I can tell, so kind of immune from the window throttling behavior you correctly explain.
Excessive incast problems on a PHY will result in latency only if the switch has non-shallow buffers, otherwise the result will be discards. In these situations, I agree that QoS will help as long as it is honored down the path. However, if the incast congestion is so bad to be a problem, QoS might be a palliative vs just a larger link. Some QoS implementations work really well, others (especially in consumer gear) still can suffer from drops under some conditions.
I've never used a Dante system, so i don't know how sensitive it is to loss of a single UDP datagram. My main point was to not discount interface "displacement" in favor of features - if a switch has both, and enabling QoS does not cause other issues (= it does not increase the switch CPU cycles, which can happen if the switch's dataplane chipset sucks), why not. After all, these network variables (packet loss, latency, and jitter if one is curious) are measurable.

That all said, this is getting very nitty-gritty, and in practice on a reasonable switch, following basic guides with default settings you're unlikely to run into an issue.

Totally agree!

 

[ctcwired]

Dante is UDP though, as far as I can tell, so kind of immune from the window throttling behavior you correctly explain.

I was only referring to how PCs tend to behave with respect to switching timing health due to things like their use of TCP, not that Dante is in any way related to TCP protocol. Even beyond little switch quirks, PCs tend to behave in more erratic unpredictable ways (oh why hello there Windows Update ), so especially for a permanent install on shared infrastructure, QoS is certainly worth the configuration & testing time for that extra consistency. They also do provide a list of popular recommended switches.

 

[tifune]

Maybe I'm missing it in the documentation, but I'm assuming it's ok to mix/match these various formats/vendors with the use of DANTE controller? For example,

<HTPC SPDIF out> -> RDL SPDIF in -> network -> audinate AES out -> <DAC>

Not sure I would actually do that, just curious

 

[somebodyelse]

Yes, the devices should be interoperable. Given Audinate's control of DANTE there's less scope for interoperability problems than in standards where there are independent implementations too.

 

[jones]

Interoperability is what Dante is all about.
Having a huge network doesn't help if you can't integrate whatever you want.

However problems may arise when there is additional Software that controls the device in question.
Stageboxes for example may not be compatible because of proprietary gain control and such things.
That might even be true if both, console and stagebox, are from the same company (looking angrily at Yamaha).

 

[Michel Forbes]

Agree, VLANs would only protect from broadcast/multicast (depending on how the switch OS handles it), which is a non-issue in a small domestic network. For professional use in a large studio, totally worth it.

Latency spikes should not happen, unless the switch's chipset is total garbage or there is routing in the middle (and again, with a poorly underscaled router). A Dante 192 Khz/24bit stereo flow is only ~50 Mbps IIRC, so again for domestic use a normal 1 Gb ethernet would be OK, unless there is a download-heavy teenager (or a NAS) in the network path between the two Dante endpoints. Tbh for non-professional users, I would rather invest in a cheap unmanaged switch with a 10 GbE uplink rather than fiddle with QoS in a low-end consumer switch, whose support and latency impact depends again on the switch's firmware.

In case of redundant connection between switches (i.e. with 2 cables), in case of fault of one of the switch uplinks, loss of ethernet frames will happen both using LACP and STP, with spanning tree being far worse. If the user really cannot afford to lose an ethernet frame, and there is no buffering-retransmission on the Dante endpoints, you need two separate networks. No consumer ethernet technology can currently guarantee link recovery in less than 50 ms.

my 2 cents.

Check Merging Anubis for redundancy :
https://www.merging.com/products/interfaces/merging+anubis/sps
Incorporating client requests to go beyond the ST2110 capability of Anubis, SPS includes no compromise ST2022-7 class C and NMOS compliance.

 

[dawnrazor]

Maybe I'm missing it in the documentation, but I'm assuming it's ok to mix/match these various formats/vendors with the use of DANTE controller? For example,

<HTPC SPDIF out> -> RDL SPDIF in -> network -> audinate AES out -> <DAC>

Not sure I would actually do that, just curious

I have 5 dante devices from 4 manufactures...focusrite, RDL, ESI and Audinate. They "just work". Only hiccup was not knowing that you have to have them all set to the same samplerate...some like the focusrite can be set to change based on the source but that is their own software iirc.

 

[pseudoid]

I have been waiting for decades for some mature, open-standard (w/o format wars) for proper routing of consumer audio over home networks.
Back in RadioShack days, I used FM transmitters; later I invested in 2.4GHz XMT/RCV hardware; then tried some WiFi band' dongles; I also kept an ear for HDMIoIP and HDBaseT news, and followed AVB. Finally, when the AES-67 standard was released (circa 2013?) and Audinate's Dante dongles cost under $350 per I/O pairs, I was willing to open my wallet, again.
I have four (4) sources of audio (2 channel) sprinkled around the house, which have been prime candidates for networking/switching/streaming any source to any one of the other 4 locations >> in a matrix'd configuration.
Since I already run a PoE (PowerOverEthernet) 1Gbe LAN-network for a few a 4k VidCams, these dongles ended up being the best whole-house audio connectivity I've had! Installation and configuration (Dante Controller) is a no-brainer and really is set-and-forget.
That white-hat amirm test results clearly show that when these el-cheapo dongles/adapters are compared to the latest/tested DACs; they are (meh!) uninteresting. Yet, AES67 compares favorably to other CD quality audio gear, over any network.
A company named 'AudioCom' sells a $250 Dual (In+Out) AES-67 Dante XLR interface- box (w/zero documentation) and my Dante Controller was able to recognize the box and it just works (not sure if it can be updated though).

 

[Catalo]

@pseudoid I have an Audinate AES/EBU adapter that I use to connect to my Genelec 8330's, and I'm exploring options for "whole home audio" using Dante as well. The main issue I'm bumping into is volume control on a room-by-room basis (ideally using a phone app à la Sonos.) How are you controlling volume for different zones?

 

[pseudoid]

@pseudoid I have an Audinate AES/EBU adapter that I use to connect to my Genelec 8330's, and I'm exploring options for "whole home audio" using Dante as well. The main issue I'm bumping into is volume control on a room-by-room basis (ideally using a phone app à la Sonos.) How are you controlling volume for different zones?

Yeah, yeah, yeah! Windows10Pro does not recognize Dante 'output' adapter as an audio source. And if you go from the dongle XLRs out to Single-Ended you take another 6dB volume cut. I use a Rotel pre/pro in the entertainment room, so the audio input goes directly as XLR and on the far upstairs side, I have it feeding a desktop powerAmp also w/XLR inputs. I don't do phone or wifi connectivity.

 

[dawnrazor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah! Windows10Pro does not recognize Dante 'output' adapter as an audio source. And if you go from the dongle XLRs out to Single-Ended you take another 6dB volume cut. I use a Rotel pre/pro in the entertainment room, so the audio input goes directly as XLR and on the far upstairs side, I have it feeding a desktop powerAmp also w/XLR inputs. I don't do phone or wifi connectivity.

Have you tried the WDM drivers for Dante Virtual Sound Card? I bet that works.

That said I have just gotten 2 Dante devices to adjust volume from my windoze 10 pc, so in theory you could have the right player with control app on a tablet or phone and control volume.

Here is how I did it and well there may be an easier way but perhaps not.

1. Install VB audios ASIO Bridge/ Hi-fi Cable and set as the system default audio output device. This will make non asio devices like youtube and media players, etc work with ASIO. Pretty sure the volume issue with ASIO is that its not designed for volume control. The bridge allows the program sending the sound to adjust vc (because its not asio) and the bridge just sends it to ASIO.

2. Set ASIO Bridge/ HiFi Cable to output to the Dante Virtual Sound card following the sample and bit rate you set Dante Virtual Sound Card to and the devices in Dante Controller. In my case its 24/ 44.1

3.Find a player that will be able to be controlled remotely. You are on your own here, but I am sure they are out there. Jriver, foobar, Jplay, etc can all probably be made to do it. In this example I am using Winamp. Its like super old and I bet there is a control ap, I am just testing volume. Set the player to output to VB ASIO Bridge/ Hi-Fi cable using direct sound.

4. Set all the devices you want to control to play from the Dante Virtual Sound card on the windows pc you are using. you may have to set up some multicast or something. I know I was able to do it with their tutorials so its got to be pretty easy.

5. Use the PROGRAM to adjust volume. The windows vc will NOT work. But Winamps does and Youtubes so its the app that is playing where the vc will happen.

6. I am not saying it will sound great. Sure this site makes a big deal about how ASIO is not needed and Wasapi is perfect and blah blah. I don't buy it and this setup doesn't sound as good as the vc in each "room" using a device with a vc. Like the Focusrite AM2. That would be an inexpensive way to get an awesome whole home system because it has a builtin preout with vc and a head phone out with vc. you could trim levels with built in vc and Focusrite has software where you can pad the output. Guessing the lacluster sound is the vc implementation in Winamp. There are probably better ones these days...but you can manage the vc issue.

Off topic but there was a review of the audinate boxes and the performance was not the best. There are other devices that have better performance and IME can sound fantastic. For instance the Focusrite and Audinates AES/EBU adapter which has better specs that the audinate DAC tested.

HTH.

 

[dawnrazor]

@pseudoid I have an Audinate AES/EBU adapter that I use to connect to my Genelec 8330's, and I'm exploring options for "whole home audio" using Dante as well. The main issue I'm bumping into is volume control on a room-by-room basis (ideally using a phone app à la Sonos.) How are you controlling volume for different zones?

The AES/ EBU adaptor is one of the devices I used in my post above about implementing a vc, at least a global one.

 

[pseudoid]

...That said I have just gotten 2 Dante devices to adjust volume from my windoze 10 pc, so in theory you could have the right player with control app on a tablet or phone and control volume....

I think the 'volume adjust' is the Windows10' TaskTray speaker icon MasterVolume. Right-click and observe the VolumeMixer panel that pops up. The most-left Volume slider is the one that you are controlling, I think...
I control the level directly from my BRZHiFi PowerAmp volume knob (or using the r/c) since the Dante dongle' output XLRs are directly connected to the BRZHiFi XLR inputs.
Not a 'wire w/gain' but more like 'the shortest/quickest distance between two points' dealio!

 

[dawnrazor]

I think the 'volume adjust' is the Windows10' TaskTray speaker icon MasterVolume. Right-click and observe the VolumeMixer panel that pops up. The most-left Volume slider is the one that you are controlling, I think...
I control the level directly from my BRZHiFi PowerAmp volume knob (or using the r/c) since the Dante dongle' output XLRs are directly connected to the BRZHiFi XLR inputs.
Not a 'wire w/gain' but more like 'the shortest/quickest distance between two points' dealio!

Its probably best to do vc like you do, but the poster was talking about Sonos type multiroom.

Anyhow in this pict the only one that changes the volume is winamp. I am assuming if I was doing youtube than the mozilla slider would work too. But the System sounds and the HIfi cable do nothing to adjust volume

 

[pseudoid]

Its probably best to do vc like you do, but the poster was talking about Sonos type multiroom.
Anyhow in this pict the only one that changes the volume is winamp... But the System sounds and the HIfi cable do nothing to adjust volume

Yes, but you really donot need the 'WinAmp' in the chain, if you worry about K.I.S.S. for audio path. A pre/pro (or integrated) with XLR inputs is how I have the Dante dongles configured in the living room AV, so that I can control acoustics and surround modes.

@dawnrazor >> Have you tried this app as a replacement for your WinAmp yet?

 

[dawnrazor]

Yes, but you really donot need the 'WinAmp' in the chain, if you worry about K.I.S.S. for audio path. A pre/pro (or integrated) with XLR inputs is how I have the Dante dongles configured in the living room AV, so that I can control acoustics and surround modes.
View attachment 150453
@dawnrazor >> Have you tried this app as a replacement for your WinAmp yet?

first off I dont use winamp. Those picts were from my work computer. I dont listen to music from that. Sure I will occasionally do youtube vids but almost everything is from my dedicated computer using Hysolid. No vc in that program.

I might have tried Aimp in the past but can't recall.

sorry but I dont get why you "dont need winamp in the chain. You need some program to play music and are suggesting a alt to winamp.

Arent you feeding your pre/pro a signal from dante, which is fed by a player?

 

[pseudoid]

... Arent you feeding your pre/pro a signal from dante, which is fed by a player?

In my PC (win10Pro) server, the answer is NO, as discussed in reply #91 above. I apologize if I was not clear enough:
DanteOutput dongle (ADP-DAO-AU-0X2) XLRs (L/R) are directly connected to my powerAmp XLR inputs (BRZHiFi PA-10). I am just trying cut-out some of the middlemEn in the loop from "Source"-to-"Load".
My audio chain includes the following (10) hardware, processing the audio from "Source"-to-"Load":
AudioSourceOut>PreAmpIn>PreAmpOut>DanteAudioIn>DanteAES67Out>PoESwitch>>>>PoESwitch>DanteAES67In>DanteAudioOut>??>PowerAmpIn.
This ugly connectivity is the reason I am currently not running the output thru yet another PreAmpIn/Out (">??>" part).

 

[soundPCMnetwork]

Other manufacturers of Dante compatible equipment like Sonifex also use POE, even for devices consuming more power (see the 16 channel Dante D/A converter Sonifex AVN-AO16).

Speaking of Sonifex. On their website they have a section of products that states:
AVN-DIO Audiophile Dante® Audio Interfaces

These simple plug and play audio interfaces provide a convenient and elegant method of connecting legacy analogue and digital audio equipment to the Dante AoIP audio network.

What’s the difference between these units and others? The audio quality. We’re using A/D and D/A circuitry that provides analogue performance that’s 10 times better than similar competing products, offering >120dB of dynamic range.

On each product link on their site they have the tech specs including up to 96kHz 16,24,32-bit
AVN-DIO01 Dante® to Analogue XLR Stereo Output
AVN-DIO02 Analogue XLR Stereo Input to Dante®
AVN-DIO03 Dante to Headphone Outputs (1/4” & 3.5mm Jacks) with Volume Control
AVN-DIO04 Dante® to Analogue Phono Stereo Input & Output
AVN-DIO05 Dante® to Analogue Terminal Block Stereo Input & Output
AVN-DIO06 Dante® to AES3 XLR Stereo Input & Output

so for example instead of Audinate Dante to 2 XLR for $168. Male the Sonifex is $386. I'd love a review of it .

 

[pseudoid]

Speaking of Sonifex.

I am still walking the 'learning-curve' tightrope.
Part of my learning, includes the fact that Audinate holds most of manufacturing for Dante/AES67 single-chip solutions.
Circa 2019 Dante ecosystem continues to grow, with over 2,000 Dante-enabled products now available on the market. Audinate's lead customers include Analog Devices, QSC and Zoom. [no NobSound or SMSL, in the list]
It is quite difficult to select a single audio-hardware manufacturer (for consumer use/pricing). Merely looking at a few audio related specs can be deceptive. There are two Audinate Dante Phy offerings, as follows:
<2013 Audinate Dante Ultimo Chip (144pin MAPBGA (13x13mm)) provides upto 4x4 audio channels upto 96kHz (32bits, Latency @1mS, 100Mbps)
From <https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-ultimo#data>
>2017 Audinate Dante Broadway Chip (256pin BGA 17x17mm) provides up to 16x16 audio channels at up to 96 kHz, or 8x8 channels at 176.4 and 192 kHz (32bits, Latency @250nS, 1GbE)
From <https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-broadway>
Neutrik Model NA2-IO-DPRO (MIC IN - supports Broadway Chip - Can patch I/O - but $850) and Stewart NetAV I/O are way out of my price range
My current contenders (In/Out @<$300) are these :
Neutrik Model NA2-IO-DLINE (LINE IN - Ultima Chip - No I/O Patch)
GlenSound AoIP22
Sonifex AVN-DIO04

I am NOT going to say YMMV