DACs and midrange performance (i.e. voices playback)

[gino1961]

Stupid question: Why (and how) does one combine a Benchmark DAC1 with a cheapie Auna amp selling for the princely sum of €96.99 (brand new) and what looks like some decent 5" budget bookshelves? That's like LS swapping a Peugeot 106 or something. The innards of the AV2-CD508 look solid enough for what it is but there are zero actual performance specs:
A review says it manages about 2x 45 W @ 0.7% max THD and should be used with higher-impedance speakers as operation with 4 ohm ones tends to trip protection. Noise, distortion and crosstalk are supposedly in the green otherwise.

Thanks a lot i was not aware of this review. Very helpful to know that difficult loads are to avoid. a 4 ohm load is very common.
I am intrigued by the smps ... and i really need a remote controlled amp.
In my search for a new pair of speakers i will keep this in mind. A gentle load. I have to check with the specs.

The DAC1 only has one notable weakness, which is no headroom above 0 dBFS. Make sure your digital peak levels are kept 2-3 dB below that just in case. (If you are using ReplayGain, that should take care of that already.) Other than that, it still makes a fairly competent DAC, despite being a bit outdated.

i am not sure to understand fully the point. I am using its optical input out from my TV ... i cannot check the level.
before the TV a Chromecast device connected with HDMI
But as i said a SMSL in coming soon. That would make the dac less of an issue. If i understood the review well.

Having such a fancy DAC may have one advantage... since it'll double as a preamp with XLR outputs, you could easily combine it with some of the excellent active (home) studio monitor speakers that are available these days.

i really need to be able to set the volume with a remote. Active speakers maybe is the best solution to keep the budget down ?

We'd only need to know your typical listening distance, levels and budget to recommend some.

10 feet more or less ... max. No high levels ... 90-95dBs peak max ? considering that actives are more expensive around 500euro for the pair ?

You can get some good ones for between 150 and a little over 300€ a piece already (several of which Amir has already measured), and a pair of decent XLR cables won't be breaking the bank either. Of course you can also spend thousands.
The Auna and speakers may still find a new home in the kitchen or whatever.

Thank you very much again. I will be reading the dedicated section with great attention.
Now i am quite curious to listen to the little SMSL ... very curious

 

[Mnyb]

From another tread The KEF R3 ? your taste in music does not seem to demand club levels of SPL

 

[RickSanchez]

... so the dac will no longer be to blame

Well, as others on this thread have stated: the DAC -- the Benchmark DAC1 -- was not a problem in your audio chain. The SMSL Sanskrit 10th MK II is a fine piece of kit, I'm sure you'll enjoy it. But it's not going to be solving any audio problems in your setup. Upgrading your speakers, room treatments, and measurement + EQ will have substantial benefits.

 

[kevin1969]

It's not the DAC its never the DAC

His DAC has Lupus

 

[AnalogSteph]

10 feet more or less ... max. No high levels ... 90-95dBs peak max ? considering that actives are more expensive around 500euro for the pair ?

There's quite a lot of potential candidates that I might be looking at:
ADAM T7V, T8V
Kali LP-6, LP-8, IN-5, IN-8
JBL 306P MkII, 308P MkII
Tannoy Gold 8
Behringer B2031A
Yamaha HS8 (possibly a bit too wide still)
RCF Ayra Pro6, Pro8
Presonus Eris E8 XT (may appreciate a bit of EQ)

Look up measurements where available.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Hi ! sorry for my ramblings ... but yesterday i was listening to my old Benchmark dac 1 (the very first edition) to this cd

what a beauty of cd track .... amazing indeed.
maybe it is the lockdown .... but i found the quality of the recorded singer's voice even moving for realism and passion.
Nevertheless the midrange was marred with some harshness ... it was not as smooth as i would like Not spooky realistic as it should be
I am quite sure it is not the recording ... it is the dac !
So the question ... what would be a good option for a dac in order to get the midrange right ?
i listen a lot to opera tracks/choirs etc. and the quality of the midrange is very important to me
I have the bad feeling that dacs who can provide a really great midrange are also very very expensive ?
Thank you very much for all your patience and possibly very welcomed advice.
Kind regards, gino

I have played this with my least expensive (internal dac in my laptop through laptop speakers) and my most expensive, a super (IMHO) system with plenty of power into full range speakers and I don't notice any harshness in the voice, even with this YouTube stream.
My view is it is your speakers, or speaker position which are giving a harsh sound.
(Or headphones I suppose, if that is what you use)

I could try another of the dozen or so DACs I have here but it seems pointless if the least and most expensive do not show any differences.

 

[AnalogSteph]

It's quite rough in the first minute... some nasty clipping at 0:43 or so. 0:24 sounds distorted as well.

Weird production, as mentioned. Vocals seem super close-mic'd with a good bit of added reverb, instruments not as much. Things don't really fit together. Can't say I agree with the dynamics or lack thereof either.

(My usual setup - K+H O110 @~0.4 m, some panels / absorbers at sides and back, some EQ via Equalizer APO / Peace.)

 

[Plcamp]

It's hard for us to asume anything about the recordings I for example does not have the experience of live recording as some posters here actually have , recordings are not perfect they are often mixed and balanced on imperfect eqipment too.

And its also some fallacies built in to our assumptions ......

Hifi should sound good ? why if the recording is s**t propper hifi presents its like that , learn to live with the recordings all sounds different.
Your really have arrived when recordings do sound vastly different on your kit . Its when it sound the same you have problem it could be the same good sound or the same bad sound .

Hifi does not make anything "sound better" its sounds less good , they are small degradation's in every step not improvement's ,but your are still listening to most of the signal even in a rather pedestrian system.

Also weigth whats important .

Electronics is basically solved these days , just look out for duds and asses on build quality and capacity to drive speakers and headphones .

Recording,Room,Speakers ? the order can flip if the speakers are horrible ?

Most underestimated factors . Room EQ and EQ in general .

The insane idea if not having any EQ or tone controls on audiophile equipment . even if your system where perfect in the perfect room you still need them for the recordings .
That's a nice trap built by the high end industry , the listeners will never be happy because frankly many recordings do need some active adjustments by the user, but instead you run around trying to fix it by buing a new DAC off all things "they" got you .

It occurs to me the best ultimate version of playback systems would allow you to permanently attach a DSP eq profile to each track you play, or even better, you attach a mixing/eq file to the raw microphone files of the 16 or 32 or whatever number of mic’s they used to make the original recording. The mixing engineer could derive that file and you would have the option to adjust it?

Fun unreasonable thoughts!

 

[Blumlein 88]

It occurs to me the best ultimate version of playback systems would allow you to permanently attach a DSP eq profile to each track you play, or even better, you attach a mixing/eq file to the raw microphone files of the 16 or 32 or whatever number of mic’s they used to make the original recording. The mixing engineer could derive that file and you would have the option to adjust it?

Fun unreasonable thoughts!

Any recording that starts with 16 or more mikes has also probably EQ'd, compressed, gated, reverbed, delayed, plus a dozen other things that EQ at the back end can't fix. So yes unreasonable. Plus mikes are often chosen for the ways they sound non-flat intentionally. The people doing the recording don't want them flat.

A good for instance. This is one method of compression in Reaper a very inexpensive DAW. This particular one has 6 frequency bands each with different levels, different attack, decay, knee, release and compression ratio settings. Oh, and I can add more bands if I want to, lots more. This alone is something you cannot possibly undo on the playback end. And I could (and maybe would) use a different setting of this for main vocal, backing vocals, percussion and other instruments and mix it all together when done. And again this would be only one of at least several things a recording would have done to it.

 

[CtheArgie]

@gino1961 , Caro Gino. There is nothing wrong with this recording. It sounds magnificent. Nothing wrong with the voice. I use SMSL su-8 v2 plus powered monitors, Eve Audio SC207. Not very fancy. And the sound is terrific. Thanks for mentioning this wonderful recording!

 

[gino1961]

From another tread The KEF R3 ? your taste in music does not seem to demand club levels of SPL

Hi ! sorry for the late reply and thank you very much for the great advice. I am more than sure that the R3 are excellent speakers. But considering that i have a very entry level speakers i am trying to understand what budget is needed to get some very decent alternatives.
I would like to stay with passive speakers because apart of this humble Auna i have already a very nice little power amp from Stello mod. S100. The guy from whom i bought it stated clearly that it is a quality unit.
https://tmraudio.com/components/pow...c-stello-s100-stereo-power-amplifier-s-100-1/
Yesterday i bought a SMSL Sanskrit 10th mk II dac that i would like to use as a dac/preamp I do not know the quality of the variable volume.
So the idea is to try some passive speakers new or used max 5-600 USD/pair. They should be 2-ways bookshelves.
The KEF R3 are about 1600 USD .... they are above my current budget. I am looking just for an improvement for now.
But it has been very important for me establishing that the issue is in the speakers. Very important. I know now where to place money.

 

[gino1961]

Well, as others on this thread have stated: the DAC -- the Benchmark DAC1 -- was not a problem in your audio chain. The SMSL Sanskrit 10th MK II is a fine piece of kit, I'm sure you'll enjoy it. But it's not going to be solving any audio problems in your setup. Upgrading your speakers, room treatments, and measurement + EQ will have substantial benefits.

Hi thanks a lot. I will look for new speakers. I am more fascinated by electronics i have to say. Anyway ... about EQ i am very ignorant. I wonder at which point in the chain is better to put some EQ unit ... i am streaming music from the net mostly.

 

[gino1961]

There's quite a lot of potential candidates that I might be looking at:
ADAM T7V, T8V
Kali LP-6, LP-8, IN-5, IN-8
JBL 306P MkII, 308P MkII
Tannoy Gold 8
Behringer B2031A
Yamaha HS8 (possibly a bit too wide still)
RCF Ayra Pro6, Pro8
Presonus Eris E8 XT (may appreciate a bit of EQ)
Look up measurements where available

Wow ! i see that the choice is almost endless ... are they all active ? as i said above i have some better electronics to use. I was just trying to check the limits of a cheap amps. I understand now that it has big problems with difficult loads. So i will ditch it for something better.
I will check if some of the speakers in the list are available also in passive version. Thanks a lot.

 

[gino1961]

I have played this with my least expensive (internal dac in my laptop through laptop speakers) and my most expensive, a super (IMHO) system with plenty of power into full range speakers and I don't notice any harshness in the voice, even with this YouTube stream. My view is it is your speakers, or speaker position which are giving a harsh sound.
(Or headphones I suppose, if that is what you use)
I could try another of the dozen or so DACs I have here but it seems pointless if the least and most expensive do not show any differences.

Hi thanks a lot. Another suspect is the cheap amp i am using. In the next days i will try another more powerful amp. The one i am using could not like the speakers load. I cannot find the impedance curve of the speakers ... the Energy c-100

They are quite unknown ... i made a misjudgement based mostly on the look That i like very much

 

[gino1961]

It's quite rough in the first minute... some nasty clipping at 0:43 or so. 0:24 sounds distorted as well.
Weird production, as mentioned. Vocals seem super close-mic'd with a good bit of added reverb, instruments not as much. Things don't really fit together. Can't say I agree with the dynamics or lack thereof either.
(My usual setup - K+H O110 @~0.4 m, some panels / absorbers at sides and back, some EQ via Equalizer APO / Peace.)

Hi ! thanks a lot for the very valuable analysis. So it could be the system exposing these issues ? i love singers ... should i try tube amps ? tubes and voices are usually a great combination

 

[escape2]

Just listened to that song - it's definitely a poor recording. Nothing a new DAC will fix.

Check out the Female Vocals thread - a lot of quality content there:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...emale-vocals-stunning-recordings-you-love.84/

 

[Jimbob54]

Hi ! thanks a lot for the very valuable analysis. So it could be the system exposing these issues ? i love singers ... should i try tube amps ? tubes and voices are usually a great combination

Dont try and fix dodgy recordings or poor speakers/ room with a different DAC or amp. Either accept the frailty of some recordings and enjoy for what they are and/ or get better transducers and room set up.

 

[gino1961]

@gino1961 , Caro Gino. There is nothing wrong with this recording. It sounds magnificent. Nothing wrong with the voice. I use SMSL su-8 v2 plus powered monitors, Eve Audio SC207. Not very fancy. And the sound is terrific. Thanks for mentioning this wonderful recording!

Hi ! I'm very glad you liked it too. Truly a great singer and an exciting cover. If i were the recording engineer i would not be happy with a less than perfect recording of her voice. To get her voice recorded rightly is a sign of respect and admiration. Today the technology allows for very realistic recordings. When i watch movies for instance sometimes i am shocked by how real some effects sound ... for instance i remember a movie (stupid me that i did not take the title) where at some point and actor was knocking on the window of a lab. It was like the actor was inside the TV knocking on the glass screen. It was not just realistic ... it was real. And shocking. The friend's palyback chain was a Samsung 80USD dvd player > Revox B150 integrated > Quad esl 63. I bought only the dvd player ... my rule is ... if a chain sounds good also the elements of the chain must be good.
I am quite sure that both the amp and the speakers can sound really good. The SPlevel was not that high by the way.

 

[gino1961]

Just listened to that song - it's definitely a poor recording. Nothing a new DAC will fix.
Check out the Female Vocals thread - a lot of quality content there:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...emale-vocals-stunning-recordings-you-love.84/

Hi ! thank you very much indeed ! i will study the link with great attention. I read somewhere that well recorded voices can be a great tool to judge a system quality. I am reading the thread. Thanks a lot again.

 

[majingotan]

Hi ! sorry for my ramblings ... but yesterday i was listening to my old Benchmark dac 1 (the very first edition) to this cd

what a beauty of cd track .... amazing indeed.
maybe it is the lockdown .... but i found the quality of the recorded singer's voice even moving for realism and passion.
Nevertheless the midrange was marred with some harshness ... it was not as smooth as i would like Not spooky realistic as it should be
I am quite sure it is not the recording ... it is the dac !
So the question ... what would be a good option for a dac in order to get the midrange right ?
i listen a lot to opera tracks/choirs etc. and the quality of the midrange is very important to me
I have the bad feeling that dacs who can provide a really great midrange are also very very expensive ?
Thank you very much for all your patience and possibly very welcomed advice.
Kind regards, gino

I listened to my worst distorted DAC in my collection today (Schiit Bifrost 2) and wow those mids are rendered beautifully, voices are rendered with extreme realism, zero harshness and mic coloration disappeared from the recording, piano sounds like a real piano, imaging is so holographic /sarcasm . Serious talk, it's not the DAC, but the recording sounded great to me IMHO, and fault nothing to the way the recording was made contrary to some of the opinions of others though listening through the HS7 speakers