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Cultural appropriation in music

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Cosmik

Cosmik

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I'm reflecting on my experience of that public call-out for (alleged) sexism, and comparing it to my experience of being subjected to (and I stress again, very mild) racism throughout my childhood.

It was without a doubt the racism that hurt much deeper and longer.
A difference, though, surely, is that one of these things might potentially have practical consequences for the rest of your life (if, say, the person making the false accusation puts it on the internet and all future employers see it when they inevitably google your name - or at least you might imagine that is happening which might be just as bad). The other was a pathetic jibe from a pathetic person that is in the distant past... no?
 
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andreasmaaan

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A difference, though, surely, is that one of these things might potentially have practical consequences for the rest of your life (if, say, the person making the false accusation puts it on the internet and all future employers see it when they inevitably google your name - or at least you might imagine that is happening which might be just as bad). The other was a pathetic jibe from a pathetic person that is in the distant past... no?

Absolutely agree, there is a difference. Though to me, your words - "one of these things that might potentially have practical consequences for the rest of your life" - sound a lot like how I think many people experience racism once it's happened a few times. I think you start to fear it and expect it and dread situations in which you know you are more likely to experience it.

FWIW, the accusation levelled at me was not from a pathetic person, actually it's someone I quite respect as an academic (I don't know her personally), but we misunderstood each other mostly because it was an online discussion like this one, and I think her judgement erred. But yes, it has probably been forgotten, thankfully.
 

Guermantes

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Cross-cultural exchange is to be expected and isn't just a product of the modern age. In European music I can think of Mozart and Beethoven using "janissary" elements, Debussy being inspired by gamelan, Messiaen using classical Indian rhythms (not to mention his cross-species use of birdsong) and Peter Sculthorpe using Asian and indigenous Australian elements (I met Sculthorpe, he was a really nice, gentle soul). I'm sure we could push it right back to Medieval, Roman and Greek times. However, many of these influences were a by-product of empire building and colonialism and I would be perfectly happy to hear informed criticism on the inappropriate use of said elements. The politics of imperialism and colonialism are now considered defunct, is it any wonder then that we may need to reconsider what is cultural exchange and what is "appropriation" (i.e. exploitation)?

We seem to have an idea, inherited from the Western European Romantics, that art and artists transcend their social contexts and thus are afforded an almost sacred, untouchable position -- especially if they are artists that we like. When it comes to art, the ends justify any means whatsoever. While I think the production of art is a vital human activity that has a special place in society, I also think there are responsibilities and consequences of actions that artists should be conscious of, just like any other person.

I'm a composer and I have used musical elements from outside my own cultural background. If I look back on some of my earlier work, I can see sometimes it was a justifiable influence and other times it makes me squirm at its inappropriateness: "What was I thinking?" Am I racist? No, I strive hard to not be (I'm guilty of miscegeny, though:)). Do I unconsciously participate in racist attitudes that are socially normalised? Quite possibly. For all we know, Kate Bush, David Byrne, Sting, et alia may have similar perspectives on their work.

My point is that "cultural appropriation" is a complete BS term. Universally. It is universally stupid, whether it deals with music, art, food, wine, philosophy, science, whatever. There is no non-stupid argument against "cultural appropriation."

The strength of the human mind is the ability to learn and adapt.

The human mind can also exploit and oppress. Art can be a product of the good and bad in humanity.
 
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Cosmik

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If I look back on some of my earlier work, I can see sometimes it was a justifiable influence and other times it makes me squirm at its inappropriateness: "What was I thinking?" Am I racist?
I find it interesting that you, too, automatically link 'cultural appropriation' with racism. This is what makes it such a poisonous concept and perhaps why it shouldn't just be dropped into record reviews and articles about artists.

But why should an (inadvertent, possibly) 'appropriation' of some elements from another culture automatically equate with racism? Is it, in fact, not racism at all? Is it, in fact, the person who makes the accusation revealing their own racism?

A genuine non-racist would not see a distinction between a 'white' (why should that matter?) American composer borrowing elements of 18th century Hungarian folk music (created by oppressed peasantry), versus Imperial Court Music from Tang Dynasty China (most definitely not oppressed peasantry), yet I think we know which one the accusers would go into paroxysms of confected rage about. Wouldn't this reveal more about them than the composer doing the appropriating? (We're not talking about the music having any consequences for children being bullied in the playground, but simply smearing an obscure composer as 'racist').

I'm pretty sure that if the American composer revealed himself to have Mexican heritage via his great great great grandfather, the accusers would be confused and back off...
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Question: a few years ago I showed a child that if they played just the black notes on a piano keyboard in the right way it could sound like instant oriental music. Was there anything wrong in this?
(That's something I discovered for myself when I was an innocent child...)
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Wombat

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There may be one or two isolated tribes still existing but once two cultures meet there is an interchange of some ideas/practises. It has been like that for so long that no culture is original or unaffected by another. Talking heads on the airwaves, filler, stuff.
 

SIY

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Note that the Roland Kirk piece I linked before had a black American playing jazz-blues on a transverse flute accompanied by a Hammond electric organ. Count the number of cultures in that mash-up.
 

andreasmaaan

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@Cosmik I think it goes without saying that we are all racist at an unconscious level. It is inbuilt into the worldviews that we all share and that inform our interactions from soon after the moment we become socially aware. I'm not talking just about "white people" here, I mean that racial prejudice is built into and permeates the psychology of everyone in our society.

If you doubt this, take a look at the various psychological studies done on unconscious racial bias.

The important question is how aware we are of our prejudices, how careful we are to not allow them to bubble to the surface in our actions in a way that is disrespectful or exploitative.

Of course, nobody can be perfect all the time, and unfortunately some (many, if we look only at the USA) of the more rabid anti-cultural appropriation voices do not recognise this, do not see the nuance, and lack the empathy and the willingness to consider how other people might think and feel.

But that doesn't make every single accusation of cultural appropriation wrong. It shouldn't stop us looking critically at ourselves and others and thinking about whether we are acting respectfully and doing our best not to exploit. I'm certainly happy to look back on my actions and judge them from time to time as wrong. I think more thoughtful artists like Byrne and Eno probably do too.

I think it's important that those making these accusations, however, do so in a thoughtful and respectful way. I'd consider the articles you posted on Bush and Eno/Byrne to be in the ballpark in this respect (I'm still really struggling to see the "paroxysms of confected rage" you keep mentioning in those pieces).

Question: a few years ago I showed a child that if they played just the black notes on a piano keyboard in the right way it could sound like instant oriental music. Was there anything wrong in this?
(That's something I discovered for myself when I was an innocent child...)

Absolutely nothing wrong with this.

I refer back to the quote from the Byrne/Eno article to explain why:

"In my conversations with musicologists over the years on these issues the lines are drawn along solely economic grounds. The artists and record companies of the first world have the resources to defend their rights, the poor do not... Borrowing, reference, and collage are fair play among equals, but perhaps deeply questionable [worth thinking about] between rich and poor.... Also depth and quality of thought in using material not self-generated is important. At best you have a respectful integration of cultures and method leading to valuable new material. At worst you have tourism and exploitation. To make that judgement involves taking each case separately..."
 
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Cosmik

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Just while I have this thought in my head....

Hypothetical example:
Avant garde western composer creates piece using a new inter-tonal scale he has made up;
Twitter person hears it and screams (or, OK, sneakily implies) 'Cultural Appropriation of Chinese Music!!!!! Racism!!!!';
Chinese listener hears the piece and says "It sounds nothing like Chinese music".

In other words, who are the people who think they can listen to, say, Kate Bush's music and state "There are also numerous instances in her back catalogue of blatant Orientalism..." when they know absolutely nothing about music or, for that matter, Orientalism?
 

andreasmaaan

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@Cosmik I agree, and I believe something like this hypothetical could happen, and I agree that the accuser in this case would be deeply misinformed and mistaken.
 

SIY

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____________________________________________________________________________
Question: a few years ago I showed a child that if they played just the black notes on a piano keyboard in the right way it could sound like instant oriental music. Was there anything wrong in this?
(That's something I discovered for myself when I was an innocent child...)
____________________________________________________________________________

side note: If you use the black keys of the piano, you can play the head to Roland Kirk's "Serenade to a Cuckoo." But that's probably cultural appropriation as well.
 
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Cosmik

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Another thought that has only just occurred to me directly:

If a music creator is accused of 'cultural appropriation' and (as we saw in @Guermantes' comment above) it is a natural reaction, even for the most intelligent, cultured person, to equate this at some level with 'racism', then the listener who enjoys the music is also being accused of racism.
 

Wombat

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Culturism seems like a better word, to me, even if nonsense.
 

svart-hvitt

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DUMBING DOWN

I have read most of the posts here. @Cosmik has raised an interesting question and made good observations.

On my part, I wonder: Why do we (need to) have this discussion? What does it say about modern society that this has become an issue?

The magician’s first principle is diversion to reach his aim, which is confusion and turning the world as we know it upside down. So this whole issue feels like dumbing down diversion, as if someone wanted to test how stupid people are.

People wonder why economic growth and prosperity have met obstacles in the past 20-40 years. Besides demographics (lower birth numbers) I often wonder what is the economic cost of people having to discuss non-issues? A society works at its best when there is flow only interrupted by intelligent debates. When the flow stops more often due to unintelligent debates I am not suprised that both growth and prosperity take a hit.
 

Wombat

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DUMBING DOWN

I have read most of the posts here. @Cosmik has raised an interesting question and made good observations.

On my part, I wonder: Why do we (need to) have this discussion? What does it say about modern society that this has become an issue?

The magician’s first principle is diversion to reach his aim, which is confusion and turning the world as we know it upside down. So this whole issue feels like dumbing down diversion, as if someone wanted to test how stupid people are.

People wonder why economic growth and prosperity have met obstacles in the past 20-40 years. Besides demographics (lower birth numbers) I often wonder what is the economic cost of people having to discuss non-issues? A society works at its best when there is flow only interrupted by intelligent debates. When the flow stops more often due to unintelligent debates I am not suprised that both growth and prosperity take a hit.

Well, get consensus on what is or what not is worth intelligent debate and you may have a point. I bet you have your own views, one side or the other, as do others. ;)

Good luck.
 

svart-hvitt

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Well, get consensus on what is or what not is worth intelligent debate and you may have a point. I bet you have your own views, one side or the other, as do others. ;)

Good luck.

Fact is, growth is slow, prosperity is amalgamating on fewer hands. We had peace, now we have a more uncertain situation (see Doomsday Clock over time below).

To me, it seems like our society is dumbing down.

It’s interesting - but not surprising - that you are of another opinion.

1280px-Doomsday_Clock_graph.svg.png
 

dallasjustice

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This Aerosmith song was played at a hamburger joint and my public schooled 5th grader had never heard it before. He thought it was funny in a mischievous way. You could tell he thought it was “wrong” to say “dude looks like a lady.” This music would have zero chance to be popular if released today. But I’m glad it was done before everyone lost their mind.
 

Wombat

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Oh, I do see the powerful wealthy are successfully reversing social gains achieved for the general population that were achieved post WW1.
 

dallasjustice

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Here’s another one the censors wouldn’t allow today. Wang Dang Sweet Poontag
 
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