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Cultural appropriation in music

SIY

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In many cases yes, but I don't think it's very meaningful (or fair) to label all criticisms on the basis of cultural appropriation "stupid". This is why I suggested earlier that a discussion like this really needs specific examples if it's to be at all meaningful.

Denying the basis and strength of human mind and culture is indeed universally a stupid argument.


Now that should not be illegal (unless of course the pieces are actually passed off as Aboriginal art, as opposed to Aboriginal-style "art"). But it should absolutely be criticised....

Why? Because someone is non-fraudulently making money from adding things into the cultural awareness of others? Really?

When I buy knishes, I don't worry much about whether the manufacturer is owned by Jews. And horror of horrors, despite being a Turkish Jew, I cook regional Indian food, and if I charged for it, I'd be somehow mysteriously depriving rural Indians of that income because something, something.
 
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"Hate speech" from the Oxford dictionary: "Abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation."

Far, far, far from what I'm advocating.

And my defence of cultural freedom is absolute.* It would be less than absolute if it didn't extend equally to the critical, as to the criticised.

Also, please note that my distinction between the case of the Police and the case of non-Aboriginal produced "Aboriginal" art has nothing to do with "common sense". It is based on questions of exploitation made possible by socioeconomic disparity.

EDIT: *subject to most of the usual limits, e.g. threats, defamation, hate speech inciting violence, etc.
Your example of aboriginal art is, to my mind, almost like the protected status of the Cornish Pasty. It's about money and trademarks, not really 'artistic freedom' as such. It regards aboriginal art as a 'brand', and implicitly says that it can be churned out by any old idiot, and will be bought by any old idiot. I suspect that there is more to real art than that and that the market you are talking about is probably separate from real art.

So 'hate speech' now has an 'official' dictionary definition but it doesn't (yet) stop me expressing my own artistic freedom and using the words in my own literal way - even if I am subverting the 'official' definition back at you! :)

Edit:
Abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group...
Artists are a particular group. And if they have previously created work while being encouraged by society to do it (The Police were lauded for their virtue because their music was a bit reggae-ish; Katy Perry was lauded for her promotion of LGBT-type sentiments within the mainstream) they cannot now change it, just as a person cannot change their sex or skin colour. It can never be fair to level (literal) hate speech against a person who cannot now change the offending aspect of themselves, and which aspect would have been encouraged by the very same people at the time. If you see what I mean.

If not, it tells would-be artists that they can never be free of the possibility of being ostracized, ruined, shunned, cyber-lynched by society at any time in the future, despite their best efforts to be nice, virtuous people. Best just to work in a factory instead...
 
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andreasmaaan

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So 'hate speech' now has an 'official' dictionary definition but it doesn't (yet) stop me expressing my own artistic freedom and using the words in my own literal way - even if I am subverting the 'official' definition back at you! :)

You seem to be suggesting that all criticism on the basis of cultural appropriation is hate speech. Is that what you're trying to say? Or is there a distinction somewhere?
 
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andreasmaaan

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Why? Because someone is non-fraudulently making money from adding things into the cultural awareness of others? Really?

I think you may have misread my sentence. I said:

"Now that should not be illegal."
 

SIY

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I noted that, which is why I used the term "non-fraudulently."
 

andreasmaaan

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I noted that, which is why I used the term "non-fraudulently."

Then we seem to agree, no? We both think that cultural appropriations that are non-fraudulent should be entirely legal.
 

SIY

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On that point, yes, we absolutely agree, other than the characterization as "appropriation."
 

andreasmaaan

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Your example of aboriginal art is, to my mind, almost like the protected status of the Cornish Pasty. It's about money and trademarks, not really 'artistic freedom' as such. It regards aboriginal art as a 'brand', and implicitly says that it can be churned out by any old idiot, and will be bought by any old idiot. I suspect that there is more to real art than that and that the market you are talking about is probably separate from real art.

Yes, I agree that this is also an interesting and useful way of looking at the situation. The only major difference between the Cornish Pasty case and and the Aboriginal art case would be the relative power imbalances between the groups. This is no doubt why the Cornish have successfully managed to agitate for laws protecting their product, while the Aboriginal people of Australia have not.
 

andreasmaaan

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On that point, yes, we absolutely agree, other than the characterization as "appropriation."

Yes, I agree that the term might now be too loaded to use neutrally as I intended to use it. What term would you suggest?

EDIT: and in what respects do we still disagree?
 

andreasmaaan

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Cultural influence?

I believe this phrase adequately describes the Police example, but falls short of describing what is going on in the Aboriginal art example.
 

SIY

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I don't see the distinction. Someone is using culture learned from other people to make money. Both cases, except that Sting is making a ton more.

I have no problem with either.

Say, I understand Yo Yo Ma makes money playing European music...
 

andreasmaaan

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I don't see the distinction. Someone is using culture learned from other people to make money. Both cases, except that Sting is making a ton more.

I have no problem with either.

Say, I understand Yo Yo Ma makes money playing European music...

Um... Yo Yo Ma is French-American :oops:
 

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You asked for specific examples - one of the most interesting is the adoption of ska and reggae by the skinhead movement in the UK in the early 70s. Originally the skinheads were apolitical although both left and right wing factions appeared. The right wing eventually became associated with the National Front and other similar organisations and as reggae began to include elements of Rastafari and black consciousness the right wing skinheads began to look elsewhere for their music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead#Music
 

SIY

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Family is from Nanjing. And I swear I heard him play something German.
 

SIY

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The right wing eventually became associated with the National Front and other similar organisations and as reggae began to include elements of Rastafari and black consciousness the right wing skinheads began to look elsewhere for their music.

"Let a thousand flowers bloom."

Oh wait, that was Chinese.
 

andreasmaaan

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You asked for specific examples - one of the most interesting is the adoption of ska and reggae by the skinhead movement in the UK in the early 70s. Originally the skinheads were apolitical although both left and right wing factions appeared. The right wing eventually became associated with the National Front and other similar organisations and as reggae began to include elements of Rastafari and black consciousness the right wing skinheads began to look elsewhere for their music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead#Music

Fascinating :)
 

SIY

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I lived in Europe on and off for some years for professional reasons. One thing that struck me (as an American) was that someone could come to Luxembourg from Italy, settle there, and 200 years later, his descendants would still be called "those Italians."

The US is rather different that way. :cool:
 
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