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Cultural appropriation in music

andreasmaaan

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Sure, but there's a difference between being entitled to two (or more) national/ethnic identities, and not being entitled to one.

Anyway I take it you weren't trying to claim that Yo Yo Ma is not every bit as European as any other European :)
 

SIY

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He's not German and he plays Beethoven.

Horrors!

I've been searching for a photo but have been unable to find it. It's a restaurant in Milwaukee (a city heavily populated by descendants of German immigrants, with an Amerind name) that says, "India Wok Pizza." That's why I love America, we are unabashed about cultural "appropriation."
 

andreasmaaan

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He's not German and he plays Beethoven.

You're shifting the goalposts here. At first you said the problem was(n't) that he played European music.

I've been searching for a photo but have been unable to find it. It's a restaurant in Milwaukee (a city heavily populated by descendants of German immigrants, with an Amerind name) that says, "India Wok Pizza." That's why I love America, we are unabashed about cultural "appropriation."

You seem to be responding to me as though my argument is that all cross-cultural exchange is bad. This is very far from any of the points I've made.

I'm very much in favour of most forms of cross-cultural exchange, so piling on example after example of it is not going to get us very far.
 

SIY

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My point is that "cultural appropriation" is a complete BS term. Universally. It is universally stupid, whether it deals with music, art, food, wine, philosophy, science, whatever. There is no non-stupid argument against "cultural appropriation."

The strength of the human mind is the ability to learn and adapt.
 

Thomas savage

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My point is that "cultural appropriation" is a complete BS term. Universally. It is universally stupid, whether it deals with music, art, food, wine, philosophy, science, whatever. There is no non-stupid argument against "cultural appropriation."

The strength of the human mind is the ability to learn and adapt.
This is right imo but some that aren’t so culturally secure might feel otherwise.
 

Thomas savage

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Not worried that a Jew made burritos for dinner last night, before picking up his flute and playing some Roland Kirk. :cool:
This will do, it has many faucets and we could be here all day discussing it but the most important thing is the burrito tastes good.

By the time I’m in the burrito zone I’m normally quite pissed but in no way is this a indication of the quality or value of the Jewish made burrito, or indeed a Mexican made one.. I just can’t get excited about the taco truck unless I have had 10 pints.
 

andreasmaaan

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I'm disappointed nobody seems to be interested in discussing the nuances of this topic in much depth, but enjoy your burritos guys :cool:
 
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Cosmik

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Some articles about one artist who has fallen foul of the aboriginal 'cultural appropriation' thing:
http://www.newsweek.com/cultural-ap...-cancelling-gallery-show-white-painter-594924
(Why is the word "White" in the headline?)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/...-accusations-cultural-appropriation-misguided

David Byrne and Brian Eno stand accused:
Cultural appropriation in its most complete, imperial form.
http://www.getintothis.co.uk/2016/0...ural-appropriation-35-years-life-bush-ghosts/

Kate Bush, too:
...much as I love Kate Bush’s work, there are times when she gets too close to an uncritical and unthinking appropriation of indigenous cultures. There are also numerous instances in her back catalogue of blatant Orientalism and exoticism of people of colour...
...On her new album, I do think Bush has not given enough thought about using the myth that ‘Eskimos’ have 50 words for snow as her core inspiration. ...there are moments on the title track and on ‘Wild Man’ in particular, that made me feel uncomfortable for all the wrong reasons. And is dressing in indigenous Tibetan costume really acceptable publicity material Kate?
https://www.thefword.org.uk/2011/11/50_words_for_snow/

I know these musicians' lives haven't been ruined because of this (yet), and anyone is allowed to criticise their work (that's freedom of speech) but any future creativity will have been chilled. And the accusation of racism (because that's what it is) is, these days, the ultimate slur against someone; far more wounding and clinging than a stupid remark regarding race/sexuality that can often be shrugged off without psychological damage - but which the law protects people from. It is basically OK to call someone a racist by 'criticising' their work in the present or the past, and they can do nothing about it. The only way to ensure that never happens is for an artist to produce no work - or make it so bland that it can never be noticed.
 
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Cosmik

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In the past, people might have dismissed sampled ethnic voices (or whatever) as "bad taste". The criticism would sting, but it wouldn't carry any implication that the artist was a bad person; simply that they were a bad artist (unless their taste was so bad it was ironically good!). Society has allowed itself to become very nasty and mean-spirited about anyone who creates, and not just about their creations.
 

andreasmaaan

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These are all excellent examples for their complexity @Cosmik, good choices :)

Firstly though, I'd like to take you up on one of your statements, that "the accusation of racism (because that's what it is) is, these days, the ultimate slur against someone; far more wounding and clinging than a stupid remark regarding race/sexuality that can often be shrugged off without psychological damage".

As someone who has experienced relatively very mild racist remarks - exactly the kinds of comments you describe, I presume - occasionally but repeatedly and over many years (although thankfully barely at all in recent years), I can assure you that the psychological damage is very real, and to have it dismissed by someone who (I presume; correct me if I'm wrong) hasn't experienced it fills me with not only a dreadful sense of being misunderstood, but also, to be frank, a feeling of quite some disgust. And the racism I've experienced is extremely mild compared to what many others go through.

So to me, the difference between an accusation of cultural appropriation and a racist comment is not that the former is somehow more damaging; it's that it probably hasn't been experienced by the recipient again and again, throughout their lifetime, from the time they were a small and vulnerable child.

And my experience is absolutely mild in comparison to others.

But putting that to one side, I do think these are excellent, nuanced examples and I think in all of these cases my view is that the artists' actions, despite not being immune from some critical discussion, are nevertheless worthwhile and meritorious - in other words, they don't cross the line.

Let me give my view on each example specifically.

Amanda PL: In this case, I don't have a problem with the artworks per se, but I do think that in order to display them responsibly, some acknowledgement needs to be made, not only of the influences, but in particular, of the fact that this artist has a greater opportunity to "show and sell work in the same style as Indigenous artists who don't have similar opportunities" (assuming this is true of course - I don't know anything about the geo-economics of Aboriginal art in Canada). But yes, I think the critics went over the top and the gallery overreacted by pulling the show in this case. It would have been better to use the show as a platform to draw attention to the injustice from the beginning.

Kate Bush: this one to me is really just about slightly tasteless exoticisation. Surely everyone knows by now that the "50 words for snow" thing is bullshit and that "Eskimo" is not even a language... I mean, come on Kate, wise up a little (I'm a big fan of hers, and even more so of Eno and Byrne, btw).

Eno and Byrne: I can't really sum it up better than the author of the article (my underlines): "In my conversations with musicologists over the years on these issues the lines are drawn along solely economic grounds. The artists and record companies of the first world have the resources to defend their rights, the poor do not... Borrowing, reference, and collage are fair play among equals, but perhaps deeply questionable between rich and poor.... Also depth and quality of thought in using material not self-generated is important. At best you have a respectful integration of cultures and method leading to valuable new material. At worst you have tourism and exploitation. To make that judgement involves taking each case separately..."

I would replace the too-strong phrase "deeply questionable" with "worth thinking about", and would add that borrowing is fine; the important thing is recognising the socioeconomic realities and dealing with them with care and sensitivity.

Lastly, do you really think this article on Bush and this other article on Eno and Byrne are "mean-spirited and nasty"? Do you think these articles have shattered these artists' confidence and thrown their sense of self and creative process into disarray? Perhaps they've simply read them, reflected, agreed and/or disagreed with aspects of what's been written, and moved forward.
 

SIY

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Lastly, do you really think this article on Bush and this other article on Eno and Byrne are "mean-spirited and nasty"? Do you think these articles have shattered these artists' confidence and thrown their sense of self and creative process into disarray? Perhaps they've simply read them, reflected, agreed and/or disagreed with aspects of what's been written, and moved forward.

Or they just didn't give a **** what someone they never heard of says.
 

andreasmaaan

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Btw @Cosmik, did you see my response (#344) to your post in the "blind tests stressful" thread? I'd be interested to hear your response as the issues are ones that I've been following your very interesting posts on for some time.. :)
 
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Cosmik

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...to have it dismissed by someone who (I presume; correct me if I'm wrong) hasn't experienced it fills me with not only a dreadful sense of being misunderstood, but also, to be frank, a feeling of quite some disgust.
Quite a contrast between the robustness that an artist is supposed to show in the face of being called a form of racist, plagiariser and thief ('appropriator'), and the reaction to a discussion with someone who isn't even in conflict with you in any way!

You don't actually know anything about me, so your presumption (prejudice?) about my experiences could be completely wrong. My experience (and I was a child, too) is that sweeping generalisations are *often* easy to shrug off; but calculated insults, perhaps regarding unique 'difference' go much deeper. Sorry if that's not your experience, but it is mine - I may be unique.
...do you really think this article on Bush and this other article on Eno and Byrne are "mean-spirited and nasty"?
Yes, I think I do.
Do you think these articles have shattered these artists' confidence and thrown their sense of self and creative process into disarray?
Potentially. The idea that everyone might now think they are low level racists and thieves might come as a *total* shock to them. Maybe their entire sense of self-worth is bound up in
(a) their work being their own creation
(b) they are nice people
If someone had said their work was in poor taste, say, it still leaves them with the option to argue that it isn't in poor taste and that maybe the reviewer's own taste is questionable. To casually drop into a review that the artist is just one step down from The Black and White Minstrel Show might really perturb them. At the end of the day, the person making the accusation is the plagiariser - parroting an idea they have heard someone else using in order to make themselves feel good, but people are so (rightly) fearful of the 'R' word (like the 'W' word in Salem in the 1690s) that it should not be casually bandied about by people writing record 'reviews'.
Perhaps they've simply read them, reflected, agreed and/or disagreed with aspects of what's been written, and moved forward.
Highly likely, but artists are, by nature, sensitive souls.
 

andreasmaaan

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Quite a contrast between the robustness that an artist is supposed to show in the face of being called a form of racist, plagiariser and thief ('appropriator'), and the reaction to a discussion with someone who isn't even in conflict with you in any way!

You don't actually know anything about me, so your presumption (prejudice?) about my experiences could be completely wrong. My experience (and I was a child, too) is that sweeping generalisations are *often* easy to shrug off; but calculated insults, perhaps regarding unique 'difference' go much deeper. Sorry if that's not your experience, but it is mine - I may be unique.

I'm sorry if my presumption was wrong. It was based simply on your statement in post #52, which indicates to me that you don't seem to have had the experience of being subjected to lifelong racism. I still may be wrong in my presumption and if that's the case, I apologise.

I don't see the "contrast" you're talking about though - I completely support your right to make that comment and I am comfortable with how I felt about it. I did think it was worth explaining to you how I felt, though, in the interest of hopefully furthering our understandings of each other's positions. I can cope, and so should artists be able to.

I've also been publicly accused of sexism on one occasion and it really did sting. So in considering your comparison between an artist being accused of appropriation and a person experiencing everyday racism, I'm reflecting on my experience of that public call-out for (alleged) sexism, and comparing it to my experience of being subjected to (and I stress again, very mild) racism throughout my childhood.

It was without a doubt the racism that hurt much deeper and longer.

What about the two articles did you find mean-spirited and nasty? I would have described both articles as thoughtful and mostly positive, tempered with some criticism.
 

RayDunzl

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