Confused by center channel: 3xMTM vs 2xTM + 1xMTM

[smania]

I have a projector so a lot of space under the screen (60cm).
The system will be used mainly for movies.
What would be the best configuration for fronts + center:

1. Should I go with a "regular" center speaker mounted vertically and 2 regular fronts (towers/bookshelf)?
2. Or go with 3x center channels all mounted vertically?
3. Or even 3x regular bookshelves mounted low (assuming I can find a bookshelf sold not in pairs)?

(BTW this is for a system for 2 armchairs at 8-9' from screen so I think some decent horizontal beamwidth? Or am I overthinking it?)

I'm not even sure what the center channel usually carries other than dialog: does the soundtrack too usually come from the center?

And: why are the centers usually MTM instead of TM only?

 

[Vict0r]

A matching FL, center and FR is often a quicker way to succes. So three bookshelf speakers of the same kind would be preferable.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I'd recommend a single point center like a KEF product as I think they have a great $450 a pair speaker called Q150 across the front three L/R/C I think? Match that up with a sub and your pretty much done except for surrounds. Not a bunch of money and should sound very good for movies. Just get enough sub, buying too small of a sub is what causes some problems. Of course if your flush with cash two subs is the better way to go but much more money. I'd suggest starting out with a 5.1 or a 7.1 system and adding in your Atmos speakers if and when you want them. They just sit on top of your L/R fronts. Once tweaked a bit it will sound very, very good for movies and music. Let us know what you end up doing. Build to your budget. Many around here will quadruple your budget in one post! It is called audio creep and afflicts everyone into audio....a serious wallet disease. Remember your budget!

 

[smania]

A matching FL, center and FR is often a quicker way to succes. So three bookshelf speakers of the same kind would be preferable.

I haven't seen pictures of configurations like this though. I suppose because they don't "look" good and because most bookshelf speakers are sold in pairs?
And: why center speakers are usually MTM? Why aren't they "just" a regular bookshelf placed horizontally?

 

[Dj7675]

I have a few thoughts that may or may not be useful to you. I have a 122inch wide screen and sit at around 11-12 feet and have tried a few different options.
-Center channel is really important and does a lot more than just dialogue. Think more like 70-80%.
-Pick a center channel that can handle the spl you are wanting to hit. If you want to listen at a high level, many bookshelf speakers with a single 5-6 inch woofer may not be up to the task. If you go with a bookshelf below the screen just make sure it can handle the spl you want.
-Pick a center has the beam width that covers the seats you need. If you just have 2 seats at 10 feet away, you might be able to get away with 20 degrees. But if you have more seats/wider, you want something much wider.
-Many people like the results of in wall speakers behind a transparent screen. You could do all 3 matching in walls behind a screen, or you could just do a center in wall behind a screen and traditional L/R speakers if you wanted them for 2 channel only listening
-You could do 3 matching bookshelf sized speakers below the screen and angle up to the listeners ears if you found 3 that could play at the volume you need.
I have tried 3 revel m16, 3 m106, 3 jbl 308p. I actually ended up with 3 Revel C208 horizontal centers below my screen. The 2 8 inch woofers seem to handle higher volumes better than any of the other options. I would have went F208 for L/R, but space is a bit tight due to the large screen.
If I change again, it would to go with an in-wall and transparent screen with something like a JBL Synthesis SCL-6 or JBL 708P behind the screen on stands.

 

[LightninBoy]

I have a projector so a lot of space under the screen (60cm).
The system will be used mainly for movies.
What would be the best configuration for fronts + center:

1. Should I go with a "regular" center speaker mounted vertically and 2 regular fronts (towers/bookshelf)?

No. Don't mount a center channel vertically, you might as well get a normal speaker then. You can get a 3-way center channel speaker like the Revel C208 and mount it horizontally.

1. Or go with 3x center channels all mounted vertically?

If you are going to mount everything vertically, then just get normal speakers.

1. Or even 3x regular bookshelves mounted low (assuming I can find a bookshelf sold not in pairs)?

The best option of the 3. However, I wouldn't mount the L/R speakers low unless I absolutely had to.

Bottom line, because you have space under you screen, you don't need a classic center channel and can use a standard bookshelf speaker as long as it meets you SPL requirements. That said, a quality 3-way center channel like the Revel C208 or Kef options provide the SPL and good horizontal dispersion, just mount them horizontally like they are designed to be.

 

[smania]

I have a few thoughts that may or may not be useful to you. I have a 122inch wide screen and sit at around 11-12 feet and have tried a few different options.
-Center channel is really important and does a lot more than just dialogue. Think more like 70-80%.
-Pick a center channel that can handle the spl you are wanting to hit. If you want to listen at a high level, many bookshelf speakers with a single 5-6 inch woofer may not be up to the task. If you go with a bookshelf below the screen just make sure it can handle the spl you want.
-Pick a center has the beam width that covers the seats you need. If you just have 2 seats at 10 feet away, you might be able to get away with 20 degrees. But if you have more seats/wider, you want something much wider.
-Many people like the results of in wall speakers behind a transparent screen. You could do all 3 matching in walls behind a screen, or you could just do a center in wall behind a screen and traditional L/R speakers if you wanted them for 2 channel only listening
-You could do 3 matching bookshelf sized speakers below the screen and angle up to the listeners ears if you found 3 that could play at the volume you need.
I have tried 3 revel m16, 3 m106, 3 jbl 308p. I actually ended up with 3 Revel C208 horizontal centers below my screen. The 2 8 inch woofers seem to handle higher volumes better than any of the other options. I would have went F208 for L/R, but space is a bit tight due to the large screen.
If I change again, it would to go with an in-wall and transparent screen with something like a JBL Synthesis SCL-6 or JBL 708P behind the screen on stands.

Very useful.
Some info/questions:

I can't use a transparent screen.
How can I know the SPL I need? I'm pretty close (8-9' from screen, I think 6' from speakers) and in an apartment, so I don't think I'll be able to go that loud...

 

[smania]

No. Don't mount a center channel vertically, you might as well get a normal speaker then. You can get a 3-way center channel speaker like the Revel C208 and mount it horizontally.

If you are going to mount everything vertically, then just get normal speakers.

The best option of the 3. However, I wouldn't mount the L/R speakers low unless I absolutely had to.

Bottom line, because you have space under you screen, you don't need a classic center channel and can use a standard bookshelf speaker as long as it meets you SPL requirements. That said, a quality 3-way center channel like the Revel C208 or Kef options provide the SPL and good horizontal dispersion, just mount them horizontally like they are designed to be.

Thank you.
I'm a little bit confused.
I don't think I want to spend that amount of money (Revel C208)... I thought using a cheaper center vertically I was going to have power AND horizontal beamwidth? Using a standard bookshelf involves finding one that is sold not in pairs...

 

[Bleib]

 

[Dj7675]

Very useful.
Some info/questions:

I can't use a transparent screen.
How can I know the SPL I need? I'm pretty close (8-9' from screen, I think 6' from speakers) and in an apartment, so I don't think I'll be able to go that loud...

In your situation I would go 3 matching bookshelf speakers due to your distance you listen from and not needing to go overly loud. Maybe somehting from KEF or Revel ( or whatever brand that you can get in your region). To get an idea on what speakers can play loud enough for you, you can look at the distortion measurements of speakers Amir has reviewed or Erin (erin's audio corner) has reviewed. But I don't think that will be much of an issue for you. There are quite a lot of good bookshelf speakers. I am assuming you will be using subwoofer(s) too?

 

[smania]

Yes I saw that; very informative. But I'm not sure which solutions are proposed... not many bookshelf speakers are sold not in pairs? I don't think he ever suggests to place a center vertically?

 

[smania]

In your situation I would go 3 matching bookshelf speakers due to your distance you listen from and not needing to go overly loud. Maybe somehting from KEF or Revel ( or whatever brand that you can get in your region). To get an idea on what speakers can play loud enough for you, you can look at the distortion measurements of speakers Amir has reviewed or Erin (erin's audio corner) has reviewed. But I don't think that will be much of an issue for you. There are quite a lot of good bookshelf speakers. I am assuming you will be using subwoofer(s) too?

Yes but again not many speakers are sold not in pairs. That's why I was thinking going with a central mounted vertically.
I'm in Italy; can you suggest some speakers that can be bought as "single"?
I would like to avoid buying 4 speakers to use 3 of them...

 

[Vict0r]

Yes but again not many speakers are sold not in pairs. That's why I was thinking going with a central mounted vertically.
I'm in Italy; can you suggest some speakers that can be bought as "single"?
I would like to avoid buying 4 speakers to use 3 of them...

You could try and get a single KEF Q350 second hand or refurbished, and then order a new pair to join them.

 

[KMO]

No. Don't mount a center channel vertically, you might as well get a normal speaker then. You can get a 3-way center channel speaker like the Revel C208 and mount it horizontally.

That doesn't really make sense. Most centre speakers would perform better vertically in terms of dispersion.

It's perfectly legitimate to buy a centre simply because it's available individually. And if you do, and you have the space, then you can perfectly legitimately use it vertically.

Although you do want your tweeters and midrange aligned as much as possible vertically across the LCR speakers. You might have the space to mount a centre vertically, but it might put it's tweeter and midrange lower than ideal.

To help counteract a vertical offset, centre speakers are often tilted, but that's less of an option with a vertical configuration.

I actually don't think 3 vertical centres is a daft option, if the centre is good enough and you have the space. It is one way of getting identical LCR.

But it would mainly be on the basis of availability in odd numbers. Centre speakers are usually not as good as non-centres. So identical non-centres is probably better, if you can source an odd number. (I personally use 7x LS50 Meta - I do have one spare as a result).

Only other possible reason for using centres is that they may be sealed, which may be what you want for crossover integration purposes if using a sub. A sealed box with 80Hz F3 is the prototypical "THX" main, which the asymmetric 12dB/24dB crossover in AVRs was designed to combine with.

 

[smania]

To help counteract a vertical offset, centre speakers are often tilted, but that's less of an option with a vertical configuration.

Damn I didn't think of this... tilting in vertical configuration is going to be a problem

 

[LightninBoy]

That doesn't really make sense. Most centre speakers would perform better vertically in terms of dispersion.

Its not a question of the whether the center speaker would perform better than itself if mounted vertically, its a question of whether it would perform better than a normal speaker. In most cases, the answer is no. So why bother?

It's perfectly legitimate to buy a centre simply because it's available individually. And if you do, and you have the space, then you can perfectly legitimately use it vertically.

Individual sale is a concern, agreed. But there are great bookshelf options available individually.

Although you do want your tweeters and midrange aligned as much as possible vertically across the LCR speakers. You might have the space to mount a centre vertically, but it might put it's tweeter and midrange lower than ideal.

To help counteract a vertical offset, centre speakers are often tilted, but that's less of an option with a vertical configuration.

I actually don't think 3 vertical centres is a daft option, if the centre is good enough and you have the space. It is one way of getting identical LCR.

But it would mainly be on the basis of availability in odd numbers. Centre speakers are usually not as good as non-centres. So identical non-centres is probably better, if you can source an odd number. (I personally use 7x LS50 Meta - I do have one spare as a result).

The bold is exactly the point I am making, so I think we are in agreement.

I ran into a situation where it was actually cheaper for me to buy a pair of bookshelves for the center channel than buy the actual matching center channel speaker. So I bought the pair and ended up with better sound, a spare speaker, and I saved a few bucks.

 

[smania]

Actually I ran some calculations and it seems that in any case I'll be in the +-20 degrees off axis (220cm from speaker front, no way I'm more than 70 cm on the side - seat is for 2 people). So maybe I'm good with some center speaker placed horizontally? For example Polk S30?

 

[LightninBoy]

Thank you.
I'm a little bit confused.
I don't think I want to spend that amount of money (Revel C208)... I thought using a cheaper center vertically I was going to have power AND horizontal beamwidth? Using a standard bookshelf involves finding one that is sold not in pairs...

My advice is to find a bookshelf that is available individually. Revel M16 would be a great option.

Edit: I've been looking at pro monitors, Revels, and tower speakers for so long, I didn't realize the dearth of bookshelf options that are available individually. What a shame. I still stand by the advice that getting 3 bookshelves across would be your best bet and the Revel M16 would work great.

But if, for whatever reason you are forced to buy a cheap 2 way center channel, then you can absolutely mount it vertically for better horizontal dispersion. Personally, I would only go down this path if there was a bookshelf model I just had to have that wasn't sold as singles.

 

[Colonel7]

Actually I ran some calculations and it seems that in any case I'll be in the +-20 degrees off axis (220cm from speaker front, no way I'm more than 70 cm on the side - seat is for 2 people). So maybe I'm good with some center speaker placed horizontally? For example Polk S30?

If you are truly no more than 20 degrees off-axis then you'll be ok with a decent MTM like the S30 if you can still get one (good predicted in-room response). Does your AVR have room correction or can you do parametric EQ?

 

[Soundmixer]

Don't mount a center channel vertically, you might as well get a normal speaker then.

A normal speaker (or matching one to the left and right) is far better than a dedicated center channel. MTM mounted horizontally has a horrible off-axis response via loving issues, unless they have a tweeter over midrange(3 way) driver position.