• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Challenge for Objectivists: Bottlehead crack emulation (w/ Sennheiser HD6XX)

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
4,195
Likes
2,475
There is very little good written polished tube amplifier VTS, especially free ones. However I can recommend PTEq-X from Ignite Amps, which is free. It's a legendary fateful simulation of legendary passive tube amp/EQ from late 50's with 4 ECC tubes to choose from (i use ECC82 which adds just a little bit to bass region). I don't use it with headphones but with speakers to add that little something at the bottom as hedaphones already got that covered (lo and sub bass) so no need there.
Subjectively confirmed from couple of friends it makes my Denon (Foster) speakers sound more pleasant.
Just my 10¢ on tube emulation software.
 
OP
Pugsly

Pugsly

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
98
Likes
122
So far as I could tell after reading all that you wrote, the challenge is for someone to demonstrate the ability to assemble a circuit that will emulate the Bottle Crackhead thing. Other than this, I can't figure out what this "challenge" is expected to demonstrate. And so far as emulating the Bottle Crackhead thing, al that anyone has to do is take one of them apart and build an identical circuit. I am left wondering why you think this would be a worthwhile thing to do and why the idea even occurred to you.

Hi,
(1) My original challenge was largely suggested from the POV of education/fighting misinformation - which I assume is part of the function of this site/forum.
(2) My challenge was originally not to create a solid state emulation, but create the same sound signature of a particular amplifier (Bottlehead Crack w/out speedball) with a particular set of headphones (Sennheiser 6XX) using DSP alone
(3) My assumption is that if an amplifier is measurably transparent, then the only effects that can be happening from the point of view of the headphones (assuming that two amplifiers are sufficient to power the headphone, of course) is a matter of distortion of the sound, and that such distortion in a limited set of circumstances should in principle be measurable and emulatable - if not, then either the measurement are insufficient to capture everything that would be audible, or there is some mysterious factor that is not measured or measurable (something I find highly doubtful.)
(4) I fully admit that this is something that is outside of my area of expertise and knowledge, so that my failure to achieve this end would be meaningless and the likelihood of my success would be questionable.

My interest in the Project Polaris is a personal matter (I assume this is what you were alluding to when you suggested that one could just build an identical circuit to the Crack, as the ability to emulate using solid state would not really resolve the original issue underlying my challenge.)

PLEASE NOTE: I understand that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to emulate how just any tube amplifier would interact with just any headphone. As I said before (but comments have repeatedly overlooked this) I suggested a particular amplifier (Bottlehead Crack w/out speedball) with a particular set of headphones (Sennheiser 6XX) chosen because these two items are (a) readily available, (b) the 6XX is both relatively affordable and highly regarded on both sides of the objectivist/subjectivist isle, (c) this pairing is a gateway drug for subjectivists (google recommendations for a headphone amplifier for these headphones, and you will soon hear how this pairing is 'magical') and (d) is something that I have seen requested by a number of different users on different sites/forums.

While I myself have long been convinced that subjectivists who claim that there are 'mysterious' and unknown factors that we cannot measure yet are mistaken, this is something that is difficult to prove, especially when people who just shout down any dissent by yelling 'ABX' are offering advice that is very difficult, if not impossible, for a non-specialist to implement properly.* This is sort of like saying to a flat-earther that of course the earth is not flat, and anyone can find out for themselves if they just get a rocket and fly into outer space. My proposal was more like suggesting a test that someone perform any number of readily available experiments such as looking at the sun set on the ground floor of a high-rise, taking the elevator to the top, and watching it set for a second time. It is something that I know I would not be qualified to do, but which I hoped someone here might be willing to undertake.
----
*(Similarly, it is misleading when someone says something like 'all amplifiers sound the same' without a great deal of qualification (namely when adequately powered, when the amplifiers are not poorly designed or designed to color the sound, when the distortion level, etc. falls within the required limits, and when the amplifiers are not driven to clipping) they are not helping to educate, but hurting the cause, since there are clear cases when someone moves from, say, an underpowered, cheap AV receiver that was constantly clipping to a higher power/end amplifier which would be able to drive the speakers without clipping or have very different clipping behaviour. In such an instance, it would be impossible to not hear a substantial difference, and even more difficult for the uninformed to avoid falling for other subjectivist lies and snake oil. It is misleading when someone says that the tube sound can be emulated using a DSP without explaining a good deal regarding the different functions of VSTs, the effects of impedance and loads in tube amplifiers on FR, the fact that this will change even between headphones, for example, that are 'rated' as having the same impedance level as one-another if the react as does, for example, the 6XX/650 that is rated 300 ohms nominal but can reach 500 ohms at 100hz, etc, etc.)
 
Last edited:

MrPeabody

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
657
Likes
945
Location
USA
Hi,
(1) My original challenge was largely suggested from the POV of education/fighting misinformation - which I assume is part of the function of this site/forum.
(2) My challenge was originally not to create a solid state emulation, but create the same sound signature of a particular amplifier (Bottlehead Crack w/out speedball) with a particular set of headphones (Sennheiser 6XX) using DSP alone
(3) My assumption is that if an amplifier is measurably transparent, then the only effects that can be happening from the point of view of the headphones (assuming that two amplifiers are sufficient to power the headphone, of course) is a matter of distortion of the sound, and that such distortion in a limited set of circumstances should in principle be measurable and emulatable - if not, then either the measurement are insufficient to capture everything that would be audible, or there is some mysterious factor that is not measured or measurable (something I find highly doubtful.)
(4) I fully admit that this is something that is outside of my area of expertise and knowledge, so that my failure to achieve this end would be meaningless and the likelihood of my success would be questionable.

My interest in the Project Polaris is a personal matter (I assume this is what you were alluding to when you suggested that one could just build an identical circuit to the Crack, as the ability to emulate using solid state would not really resolve the original issue underlying my challenge.)

PLEASE NOTE: I understand that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to emulate how just any tube amplifier would interact with just any headphone. As I said before (but comments have repeatedly overlooked this) I suggested a particular amplifier (Bottlehead Crack w/out speedball) with a particular set of headphones (Sennheiser 6XX) chosen because these two items are (a) readily available, (b) the 6XX is both relatively affordable and highly regarded on both sides of the objectivist/subjectivist isle, (c) this pairing is a gateway drug for subjectivists (google recommendations for a headphone amplifier for these headphones, and you will soon hear how this pairing is 'magical') and (d) is something that I have seen requested by a number of different users on different sites/forums.

While I myself have long been convinced that subjectivists who claim that there are 'mysterious' and unknown factors that we cannot measure yet are mistaken, this is something that is difficult to prove, especially when people who just shout down any dissent by yelling 'ABX' are offering advice that is very difficult, if not impossible, for a non-specialist to implement properly.* This is sort of like saying to a flat-earther that of course the earth is not flat, and anyone can find out for themselves if they just get a rocket and fly into outer space. My proposal was more like suggesting a test that someone perform any number of readily available experiments such as looking at the sun set on the ground floor of a high-rise, taking the elevator to the top, and watching it set for a second time. It is something that I know I would not be qualified to do, but which I hoped someone here might be willing to undertake.

*(Similarly, it is misleading when someone says something like 'all amplifiers sound the same' without a great deal of qualification (namely when adequately powered, when the amplifiers are not poorly designed or designed to color the sound, when the distortion level, etc. falls within the required limits, and when the amplifiers are not driven to clipping) they are not helping to educate, but hurting the cause, since there are clear cases when someone moves from, say, an underpowered, cheap AV receiver that was constantly clipping to a higher power/end amplifier which would be able to drive the speakers without clipping or have very different clipping behaviour. In such an instance, it would be impossible to not hear a substantial difference, and even more difficult for the uninformed to avoid falling for other subjectivist lies and snake oil. It is misleading when someone says that the tube sound can be emulated using a DSP without explaining a good deal regarding the different functions of VSTs, the effects of impedance and loads in tube amplifiers on FR, the fact that this will change even between headphones, for example, that are 'rated' as having the same impedance level as one-another if the react as does, for example, the 6XX/650 that is rated 300 ohms nominal but can reach 500 ohms at 100hz, etc, etc.)
---
My challenge was in part spawned by my own interactions with a friendly and kind subjectivist on a different forum who strikes me as genuine, kind, wants to be helpful, and engages with people who disagree, but who I believe is a misguided individual who is themselves unwittingly misguiding a whole community of people. I also posed this challenge as a way to get people to explain, in concrete terms, what the functional differences between a tube amplifier would be beyond FR and harmonic distortion (things that can be easily emulated using a couple of free VSTs.)

Moreover, not having the ability to go test gear and being stuck in the house over this last year, I am curious to try out a tube amplifier myself and see if the distortion/coloration would even be to my liking, and faced with a friendly response from an intelligent and earnest subjectivist, I could see how, were I not trained in spotting flaws in arguments, interested in how conspiracy theories and group thinking can manifest, and had I not in the past done a great deal of research into audiophile myths, psychology and psychoacoustics (although I am by no means more than a dabbler compared to some people here) I would have easily been sucked into spending a great deal of money on useless gear and chasing the audiophile dragon.

Someone might just say, 'who cares what these people spend their money on,' but I disagree. If someone wants to spend money on something because it is pretty, that is fine. If someone refuses to listen to reason, there is little one can do. If someone claims, however, that they have experimented with Blind testing, listened to amplifiers or DACs that both measured great but that they could hear a difference, it is impossible to prove them wrong, examine their test setup or measure the gear in question to determine why they perceive a difference when there should not be one. In part, particularly in the past, this was easy to explain (if difficult to warn against) due to the lack of availability of thorough measurements. At this point, however, it appears that while the measurements on this site are useful insofar as they serve to show if there is something fundamentally broken about the equipment in question, this community is seen in some quarters as hostile, closed minded, and dismissive. And I understand why. It is frustrating to have to explain over and over the same points. It is frustrating by those with actual scientific/engineering education, skill, and experience to be questioned in sanctimonious tones by the scientifically and technologically illiterate. It is also, however, easy for group-think and reinforcement of the orthodoxy, even when not entirely accurate to pass unnoticed, and to actually damage the cause. To draw an analogy, people become enraged when a member of the opposed political party presents an uncharitable interpretation of one's own parties' position - they are guilty of straw-manning, or ill informed fools, or liars and shills; when it is a member of our own party, however, we are likely to let half-truths and mischaracterizations of our opponents' positions stand because 'they are on the right side', or 'we know what they mean' or 'they have the essentials right.' Now look back at the posts where someone here responds to a person who claims that amplifiers that measure the same can sound different, etc. Compare how vigorously these claims are attacked and dismissed, and then compare how infrequently and at any rate gently someone who whips out an 'all amplifiers sound the same' without the requisite qualifications, or 'you could just use a DSP/eq' when a question is raised about tubes, is treated. I understand why- human beings like to be in the 'in' group, signal membership using approved terms that are picked up easily and quickly, tend to praise those we see as being on the 'right path' etc. Nonetheless, misinformation is still misinformation, and retreating to our own 'information bubble' is dangerous - see the political landscape (whatever 'side' you belong to!)

Regardless, to educate requires meeting people where they are, rather than where we wish they would be.

Sorry, but I'm not able to comprehend what you are saying.
 
OP
Pugsly

Pugsly

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
98
Likes
122
Sorry, but I'm not able to comprehend what you are saying.
Hi Peabody,
Sorry if I was unclear - especially since one of my main points was that we should aim to communicate clearly and enter into productive dialogue with people who are not necessarily on our own 'wavelength.' Is there a particular aspect of the post that you found confusing? I am happy to elaborate (this is something that I have no difficulty doing, as I can be rather loquacious, if that was not already obvious ;) ) but am not sure where I need to expand, or alternately summarize, my statements.
Best,
Pugs
 

mugbot

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
120
Likes
109
Location
Adelaide
So far as I could tell after reading all that you wrote, the challenge is for someone to demonstrate the ability to assemble a circuit that will emulate the Bottle Crackhead thing. Other than this, I can't figure out what this "challenge" is expected to demonstrate. And so far as emulating the Bottle Crackhead thing, al that anyone has to do is take one of them apart and build an identical circuit. I am left wondering why you think this would be a worthwhile thing to do and why the idea even occurred to you.

He wants to do it in software. That's the challenge.
 
OP
Pugsly

Pugsly

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
98
Likes
122
He wants to do it in software. That's the challenge.
Which, I am willing to admit, may be unfair/unreasonable, but spelling out why this is the case would also be valuable.
Thanks, Peabody, for summarizing :eek:;)
 

Helicopter

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
2,693
Likes
3,945
Location
Michigan
Hey Helicopter,
Do you think a null would not work due to (a) inherent inconsistency/changes in the tubes from one moment to the next, or (b) that there is some other effect that cannot be modelled?
Undoubtedly there would be an issue with trying to create a null test such that someone else could apply the same vst effects to their own amp and expect to achieve a null given that the tolerances for different tubes, and even differences in channels will change from one implementation to the next. As such, it would only be possible to (1) show a null with one's own amplifier, and (2) provide files that would allow others to dot, but being able to show that much would be something.
A. Yes. An individual tube's noise, distortion, and output is going to be too chaotic to model that perfectly. Someone who understands tubes and modeling could make an emulator with an output that would be indistinguishable blind, even if measured, I believe, but it would not perfectly match the tube amp. I don't think 2 bottlehead amps would pass a null test either.
 
OP
Pugsly

Pugsly

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
98
Likes
122
A. Yes. An individual tube's noise, distortion, and output is going to be too chaotic to model that perfectly. Someone who understands tubes and modeling could make an emulator with an output that would be indistinguishable blind, even if measured, I believe, but it would not perfectly match the tube amp. I don't think 2 bottlehead amps would pass a null test either.

Helicopter,
I can understand that two amplifiers, despite having the 'same' components and typology, could have enough of a difference due to tolerances in components. After all, when was the last time we saw two channels on the same amplifier without any measurable mismatch between channels? Are you also claim, however, that in the case of tube amplifiers (but not solid state amplifiers), that even once warmed up there would still be a substantial enough variation in response on tubes from one minute to the next as to make a null impossible, but that this would not be true of a SS amplifier? Not saying you are wrong, please note, just curious!
 

Helicopter

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
2,693
Likes
3,945
Location
Michigan
Helicopter,
I can understand that two amplifiers, despite having the 'same' components and typology, could have enough of a difference due to tolerances in components. After all, when was the last time we saw two channels on the same amplifier without any measurable mismatch between channels? Are you also claim, however, that in the case of tube amplifiers (but not solid state amplifiers), that even once warmed up there would still be a substantial enough variation in response on tubes from one minute to the next as to make a null impossible, but that this would not be true of a SS amplifier? Not saying you are wrong, please note, just curious!
I guess forcing a failed null test depends on how much gain is applied at some point, but tubes will be more difficult than a chip amp, op amp, or transistor to emulate. Some of the same factors are going to apply to a solid state device too, so I wouldn't say tubes will fail and SS will pass due to circuit design. It would be safer to make a specific assertion such as, if you adjust null test gain to be barely inaudible with a Schiit Heresy then a Darkvoice and Bottlehead will fail a null test against any emulator. That specific test may go for any tube amp really though, due to noise from microphonics, etc... once I get through Toole and move on to Morgan Jones I should know enough to give a better answer about the extreme limits of tube performance, but basically, you should be able to achieve audible transparency with tubes but not with the same low noise levels as the best solid state...

The issue is that an emulator won't be able to null out the noise floor of a bottlehead in a null test. You could model the frequency response with an emulator, but you would still hear the noise in a null test.
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
3,221
Likes
5,497
Wait so you want one of us to create a emulation profile that is usually done by companies trying to emulate certain hardware?

So basically do the work an entire company does? And at first I see you say, enough to fail a blind test against, meaning basically sending you the files, and taking your word for it? But then you start talking about null tests (which obviously wont be entertained, since you're an audio engineer you should know why due to noise floors, tube warm up variance, etc..)

And this all for what exactly? To prove the point of some generalized statement some long gone internet character made?

When people say DSP for tube sound (idk why this Nwa dude is always being brought up, I guess he was the OG internet objectivist to light a fire under subjectivists asses) they don't mean it in the same way you presume it's possible for any normal person to do (DBT failing against). In the same way no one says "yo take this EQ of the HD600 to match it with the LCD-X EQ, and you're done, now u have an Audeze LCD-X". In fact, it may actually be easier to achieve that, than the request you make. The only problem with blind-testing different model headphones, is the size, and weight give them away. But emulating a tube amp, and for which tube? Like who do you imagine is going to go out and do all this? Gotta buy the gear, gotta have the software programing know-how potentially, and be an electronics and audio engineer potentially if you're going to do this proper.

But I ask again, for what purpose? No one actually makes the claim in the literal sense you seemed to think it was being passed off.
 

Helicopter

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
2,693
Likes
3,945
Location
Michigan
Wait so you want one of us to create a emulation profile that is usually done by companies trying to emulate certain hardware?

So basically do the work an entire company does? And at first I see you say, enough to fail a blind test against, meaning basically sending you the files, and taking your word for it? But then you start talking about null tests (which obviously wont be entertained, since you're an audio engineer you should know why due to noise floors, tube warm up variance, etc..)

And this all for what exactly? To prove the point of some generalized statement some long gone internet character made?

When people say DSP for tube sound (idk why this Nwa dude is always being brought up, I guess he was the OG internet objectivist to light a fire under subjectivists asses) they don't mean it in the same way you presume it's possible for any normal person to do (DBT failing against). In the same way no one says "yo take this EQ of the HD600 to match it with the LCD-X EQ, and you're done, now u have an Audeze LCD-X". In fact, it may actually be easier to achieve that, than the request you make. The only problem with blind-testing different model headphones, is the size, and weight give them away. But emulating a tube amp, and for which tube? Like who do you imagine is going to go out and do all this? Gotta buy the gear, gotta have the software programing know-how potentially, and be an electronics and audio engineer potentially if you're going to do this proper.

But I ask again, for what purpose? No one actually makes the claim in the literal sense you seemed to think it was being passed off.
I hadn't actually considered going through with creating an emulator as possibly worthwhile. Agree we don't have any responsibility to back up the claims made by the OP's fictional ASR stereotype.
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
3,221
Likes
5,497
I hadn't actually considered going through with creating an emulator as possibly worthwhile. Agree we don't have any responsibility to back up the claims made by the OP's fictional ASR stereotype.

Like imagine me going to Hi-Fi forums, or Stereophile and pulling something like this. "Oh you subjectivists can hear the difference between cables? Lets see a blind test between copper vs silver, also 1 meter vs half a meter. Also while we're at it, how about the difference between 44.1kHz and 48Khz, (or 96 vs 192) that should be no problem, only costs a few bucks. And if you're bored, do try and ABX which amp has interconnects that are on risers vs interconnects on the floor."

Obviously I threw a bunch of examples to highlight how comedic it would be even for the people that do fall into those stereotypes. They'd just look on wondering why they would want to take the time and effort to do so. While most would obviously be insulted at the insinuation that all subjectivists take those claims as an identity property befitting all subjectivists.

Btw Pugsly, do you take Amir to be that Nwavguy as I've heard a few people say? Is that why you're here? If so, just ask him to deliver if you take that message of his to be as literal as you imagine (and request, with respect of wanting ABX failure + null test pass).
 

Alexanderc

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
641
Likes
1,018
Location
Florida, USA
@Pugsly, I think I get what you’re trying to do here. I’m sure it is possible to do what you suggest (to the point where no one could distinguish them in a blind test at least). The problem I see is that you’ll never convince anyone who believes there is an inherent, audible difference between analog and digital that they are mistaken. Lots of people have tried and the subjectivists remain unswayed.
 

maxxevv

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 12, 2018
Messages
1,872
Likes
1,964
DSP software to simulate / emulate the output from a tube amp at the listening end of transducer? That is certainly possible as some have come close already.

But to simulate / emulate the electrical characteristics of one completely ?

- One has to measure and map the output characteristics of say just 2 different tubes.
> It would include its waveform output at different temperatures until stable for the whole audible and ultrasonic spectrum. That's like 20Hz ~100khz.
> It would include the same measurements for different output levels (which we know vary too)
> It would include the above measurements but at different drive impedance levels.

> That would make for a pretty complicated multi- dimensional matrix to read off from. Over a million data points. Maybe even more.

- One also has to develop a drive circuit that can perfectly support these characteristics too.

- One also has to develop the software and processing that can support these requirements and not lag.

That's a tremendous amount of measurements, hardware to develop and coding to do. Not sure if anyone thinks that is worth the effort. :oops:
 

MrPeabody

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
657
Likes
945
Location
USA
Why did you title this, "A challenge for objectivists?" Whatever it is exactly that you are proposing (I still have no idea), why would it be specifically a challenge for objectivists? Maybe if you could explain this in two or three moderately short sentences, I might then be able to figure out the rest of it. Maybe.
 

weasels

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
335
Likes
547
Location
Richmond, Virginia
I'm not sure what is supposed to be demonstrated by this challenge.

I believe the key assertion made on this site (and other objectivist forums) is that "If it sounds different, it will measure different."

Here you are proposing that someone alter the stock sound characteristics of a 650 to sound different. We already know that is true.

You make an assertion that this community believes all sound differences can be explained by the current suite of metrics. I don't think that's true at all. I don't think it's an objectivist axiom that the current metrics are the only necessary metrics.
 

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
3,221
Likes
5,497
Why did you title this, "A challenge for objectivists?" Whatever it is exactly that you are proposing (I still have no idea), why would it be specifically a challenge for objectivists? Maybe if you could explain this in two or three moderately short sentences, I might then be able to figure out the rest of it. Maybe.

OP take this following statement to be the thing he wants someone from this forum to demonstrate, implying that objectivists take it to be the case that when someone says if you want tube sound, try some DSP - to equal to something along the lines of "DSP convincing enough to pass the null test + fail a blind test against a Bottlehead Crack being played on an 6XX, and some Solid State amp also playing on a 6XX."

Consider NwAvGuy's statement: "If you’re really craving say the sound of a vintage tube amp, it can be done rather convincingly in software via DSP. That way you can at least turn the crud on and off as desired."

The challenge goes to objectivists because it is presumed only an objectivist could hold to the idea that SS and Tube's could sound and measure identically. Which is a fine presumption, if anyone actually went the full 10 yards and believed that in anything aside from a softer form (in the same way no objectivst imagines you can take a pair of Koss $20 headphones and make them measure like an LCD-X and blind test fail the difference between the two where you wouldn't be able to tell the difference). He seems to not understand when someone says something like "use EQ to make it sound like a headphone you like" it doesn't literally mean a virtually identical transformation.

It's just some perplexing tall order billed as some massive conundrum objectivists have yet to account for.. which if we don't do, then we fail at "combating misinformation" which is what this site should be serving to do. And if that's what this site does, then undertake this challenge.
 

MrPeabody

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 19, 2020
Messages
657
Likes
945
Location
USA
OP take this following statement to be the thing he wants someone from this forum to demonstrate, implying that objectivists take it to be the case that when someone says if you want tube sound, try some DSP - to equal to something along the lines of "DSP convincing enough to pass the null test + fail a blind test against a Bottlehead Crack being played on an 6XX, and some Solid State amp also playing on a 6XX."



The challenge goes to objectivists because it is presumed only an objectivist could hold to the idea that SS and Tube's could sound and measure identically. Which is a fine presumption, if anyone actually went the full 10 yards and believed that in anything aside from a softer form (in the same way no objectivst imagines you can take a pair of Koss $20 headphones and make them measure like an LCD-X and blind test fail the difference between the two where you wouldn't be able to tell the difference). He seems to not understand when someone says something like "use EQ to make it sound like a headphone you like" it doesn't literally mean a virtually identical transformation.

It's just some perplexing tall order billed as some massive conundrum objectivists have yet to account for.. which if we don't do, then we fail at "combating misinformation" which is what this site should be serving to do. And if that's what this site does, then undertake this challenge.

Thanks for this useful explanation and the extra stuff that also helped. You did a good job of making it funny whether this is what you meant to do. It's funny because the thing itself is very funny. I wouldn't have been able to sum it up in the humorous manner that you did.

The thing that annoys me about this is the suggestion that being an objectivist implies that I should believe it is possible to use DSP to emulate the Bottle Crackhead thing. This seems to be the underlying premise, given the title, but I have no clue why being an objectivist is supposed to make me predisposed to believe that it should be possible to do this. If the true goal of the proposition was only to prove that it is possible to write something that other people wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of, it proved this very well.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,511
Likes
25,350
Location
Alfred, NY
Thanks for this useful explanation and the extra stuff that also helped. You did a good job of making it funny whether this is what you meant to do. It's funny because the thing itself is very funny. I wouldn't have been able to sum it up in the humorous manner that you did.

The thing that annoys me about this is the suggestion that being an objectivist implies that I should believe it is possible to use DSP to emulate the Bottle Crackhead thing. This seems to be the underlying premise, given the title, but I have no clue why being an objectivist is supposed to make me predisposed to believe that it should be possible to do this. If the true goal of the proposition was only to prove that it is possible to write something that other people wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of, it proved this very well.
It’s doable (assuming we define specifically what needs to be done and how it’s validated), but it’s significant work and no particular upside. Thus my non-joke about being compensated.
 
Top Bottom