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Canton speakers.

Crosstalk

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Yes, same as the Blade 1 one was a mediocre performing speaker... :facepalm:
The year is now 2022. Blade 1 is a product which is flawed for todays standards and is currently phased out. Nobody should buy it. Luckily KEF fixed the problems with Blade 2.

The year is now 2022. Canton's Reference line came in 2015, and they still sell them without fixing the midband distortion. The vento line up which is below the Reference K line up doesnt have this problem as it uses other materials on their drivers. There is no new version of the Reference K series with this problem fixed. Hope they update this line soon, as it clearly falls behind the competition.
 

Crosstalk

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They have to look good to sound good and mine sound and look marvelous. My take is to buy local top-quality used, and save thousands lol.
The KEF R 11 are fine speakers not so ugly they look like all the other multi-driver designed boxes and cost 3 times as much as my 9K Cantons with subs.
Show me the research supporting your view that the 9k sound bad not in my house? I listen nearfield 7' ft apart- and 7' from me. Canton corp. controls all the means of production so everything is done in-house which is a big deal. A final word from me Nobody bats 100% there are poor performers in each brand KEF included.
As an aside I wanted to know the best crossover setting for my SVS subs and emailed Canton in Germany and got a response the next day and welcomed any other questions I might have.
You might want to read this if you think they are just mediocre sounding.
https://stereo-magazine.com/archive/articles/2016/4/cantons-k-question-66507
Stereo magazine reviews are useless. They have no distortion measurements. If you bought it after reading that, then you are a victim of marketing! Sorry but thats the truth. If you really want to know what is the issue, go to Canton reference 7k thread here and see so many screenshots of Ref K line with the same problem. Sorry Vento is good, Reference K falls behind current competition. They look super cool. Agree. I dont have energy to explain it once again.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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Yes, same as the Blade 1 one was a mediocre performing speaker... :facepalm:
OK, last post..

The difference is you still dont know if the blades has 3rd or 2nd harmonic distortion, and as I already said the distortion in blades is not in the critical region
Also Sean O already said the volume can mask the distortion, the thing is the ref7k ref3k from hifi voice even at only 90dB show a high distortion in the critical region. At this volume we are not even near to high spl, no much room for distortion mask.

From hifi voice Canton reference 3k
"The overall distortion remains within normal limits, however, between 700 and 3,000 Hz it oscillates above 1%, which is quite strange
Distortion of 2nd (yellow) and 3rd (orange) harmonics

As can be seen here, part of that more pronounced (but still not drastic) distortion is due to the 2nd harmonic, but in the region around 2 kHz it is already the 3rd harmonic, which people often associate with a feeling of hardness.
"

Canton reference 8k
" Total harmonic distortion (green line)

Overall, the distortion is at normal, seamlessly low values - but in the range between 2 and 4 kHz you can see a "mound", where the value of distortion attacks 1.5%.
Distortion of 2nd (yellow) and 3rd (orange) harmonics

It can be seen from this exploded graph that the increased distortion is caused by the 3rd harmonic, as if the midrange here were no longer operating within its optimal range.
"

Source

 

thewas

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The year is now 2022. Blade 1 is a product which is flawed for todays standards and is currently phased out. Nobody should buy it. Luckily KEF fixed the problems with Blade 2.
This black & white thinking shows some lack of experience. The Blade 1 is still one of the best loudspeakers, a distortion peak above 95 dB dB isn't automatically making a loudspeaker sounding bad and thus relevant for most people. Every loudspeaker has a SPL level where the distortions rise, that doesn't make it a poor though, there are other much more relevant factors for that.

Stereo magazine reviews are useless. They have no distortion measurements.
They do, just unfortunately post them at 3 fixed frequencies (63, 3000 and 10000 Hz), for example on previously posted review:

1653585070247.png
 

thewas

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The difference is you still dont know if the blades has 3rd or 2nd harmonic distortion, and as I already said the distortion in blades is not in the critical region
Which is not correct as the distortion will appear/sound at its harmonic so if it is 2nd around 1400 Hz and if its 3rd at 2100 Hz so its more in the sensitive/audible mids than the Canton one which will be at 4 or 6 kHz respectively.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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Which is not correct as the distortion will appear/sound at its harmonic so if it is 2nd around 1400 Hz and if its 3rd at 2100 Hz so its more in the sensitive/audible mids than the Canton one which will be at 4 or 6 kHz respectively.
OK this is the last, I promess

Sorry but I have to disaggre with your argument and this dicuss has already talked, even with Sean O. comments
Critical range its around 2khz a 4khz and 3rd harmonic distortion is a problem, not a feature
Also there is no math model in order to determinante at which % the distortion vs SPL is audible. No sense keep with the same thing.

Even Sean O can't answer that easily as you in how much audible is that kind of distortion . (I already sended him a pm, and posted as you know)

If a user is asking for a low distortion product whats the problem?, there is plenty of speaker with not the 3rd harmonic distortion 1.5% at 90dB (Canton ref 8K hifi-voice) , lot of speakers start to show the 1% at 100dB

The Canton ref 3K hit 1% at only 90dB, the reviewer clearly comment how strange it is. A very expensive speaker.
Best regards
 

Crosstalk

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This black & white thinking shows some lack of experience. The Blade 1 is still one of the best loudspeakers, a distortion peak above 95 dB dB isn't automatically making a loudspeaker sounding bad and thus relevant for most people. Every loudspeaker has a SPL level where the distortions rise, that doesn't make it a poor though, there are other much more relevant factors for that.


They do, just unfortunately post them at 3 fixed frequencies (63, 3000 and 10000 Hz), for example on previously posted review:

View attachment 209054
at 3K its 0.1 % ??? Agree. At what loudness level? Also how does it change with loudness level variation? As per the graphs the distortion rises rapidly on the Cantons compared to similar priced speakers from other brands.
 

Crosstalk

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OK this is the last, I promess

Sorry but I have to disaggre with your argument and this dicuss has already talked, even with Sean O. comments
Critical range its around 2khz a 4khz and 3rd harmonic distortion is a problem, not a feature
Also there is no math model in order to determinante at which % the distortion vs SPL is audible. No sense keep with the same thing.

Even Sean O can't answer that easily as you in how much audible is that kind of distortion . (I already sended him a pm, and posted as you know)

If a user is asking for a low distortion product whats the problem?, there is plenty of speaker with not the 3rd harmonic distortion 1.5% at 90dB (Canton ref 8K hifi-voice) , lot of speakers start to show the 1% at 100dB

The Canton ref 3K hit 1% at only 90dB, the reviewer clearly comment how strange it is. A very expensive speaker.
Best regards
Problem is only this. Canton has the same midrange / tweeter / crossover across Reference line and A line. So, possibly the measurements are same across them.
 

thewas

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Critical range its around 2khz a 4khz and 3rd harmonic distortion is a problem, not a feature
Never claimed its feature. About the critical range it seems you didn't understand what I wrote above, the distortion components of the Blade will be in the critical mids while the ones of the Canton above that.

Also there is no math model in order to determinante at which % the distortion vs SPL is audible.
Exactly (for example IMD is more audible than HD) and thus just some values are more guesses than facts.

If a user is asking for a low distortion product whats the problem?
Not problem at all, I only have a problem when someone find such HD peaks as enough justification to call these poor speakers, which neither those Cantons or Blades are. I probably wouldn't also buy the Cantons but for a very different and for me more relevant reason which didn't get mentioned at all, namely the directivity drop around 2 kHz. In the end we also shouldn't forget than no loudspeaker is perfect and everything is a compromise.
 

Ciobi69

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Yes, same as the Blade 1 one was a mediocre performing speaker...:facepalm:
mediocre? i am going to buy a used pair, what are the reason its mediocre? i think its fantastic and pretty unique
 

thewas

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mediocre? i am going to buy a used pair, what are the reason its mediocre? i think its fantastic and pretty unique
That was sarcasm, it is still a fantastic loudspeaker. :cool:
 

Crosstalk

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That was sarcasm, it is still a fantastic loudspeaker. :cool:
thats not we want here. We talk with objective points. KEF blade one is a bad speaker by todays standards. all Canton Reference speakers is a joke! New KEFs are much better than Canton references. Canton ventos are better speakers than References. Period.
 

thewas

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thats not we want here. We talk with objective points. KEF blade one is a bad speaker by todays standards. all Canton Reference speakers is a joke! New KEFs are much better than Canton references. Canton ventos are better speakers than References. Period.
That is your own point of view, others see it differently.
 

Crosstalk

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That is your own point of view, others see it differently.
yes, if someone is a second hand hunter who only holds pride in owning something once was expensive then yes. Technically it falls behind todays standards at price. Dollar to dollar, there are better speakers out there now. So to me, not worth it.
 

thewas

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Again that is your opinion and no absolute truth or fact. Every loudspeaker is a compromise and far from perfect, so people must find what fills their needs better. In my personal experience those high SPL HD measurements have very low relevancy/audibility for me (would rather see some IMD measurements which correlate more) so I would still take the old Blades anytime as they excel in other fields which aren't easily quantifiable like imaging, YMMV.
 

test1223

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yes, if someone is a second hand hunter who only holds pride in owning something once was expensive then yes. Technically it falls behind todays standards at price. Dollar to dollar, there are better speakers out there now. So to me, not worth it.
I wonder what your impression was when you listened to different expensive speakers, which didn't provide "good" standard measurements but are highly regarded by a lot of people?

I liked a lot of these speakers which didn't have good standard measurements better than a lot of speaker which "measure" better. Yes there are also plenty of such speakers which I didn't like at all.

I wonder what your experience were to form your extrem position?
 

bobbyV

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Has anybody listened to the new Smart Vento 9 2s? I'm interested in those speakers.
 

juliangst

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I‘m really interested in their online exclusive speaker line (SE40K, A45, A55…). I wonder how they compare to other speakers in this price range like Focal Aria 948, Kef R11 or Focal Kanta 2 (used).
 
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