Can I do better than the Monolith M3100X?

[yelloguy]

I friend lent me his Monolith M3100X for trying it out. I am using a Marantz 5015 AVR for powering 5.1 HT setup. The fronts are B&W 683 original (aka S1) which are the predecessors to 603 series of today. The surrounds don't matter but they are 685. And the center is an HTM61.

The 3-channel is amp is perfect for driving the three fronts. The difference in sound coming from Marantz 5015 is NOT noticeable in casual listening. But when I sit down to listen to music in 2.1 format in the main listening position, it is definitely a better sound. I have my fronts crossed over at 40Hz (they go down to 39Hz in room at -3dB when measured with REW). The SVS sub goes down to 20. Tbh I didn't think I needed an amp because I liked the sound I got with the AVR. But after trying it out, I think I now want an external amp.

The mid range is definitely more pronounced. There is a ring to the kick drums now where they seemed kind of like a thud before. However, considering the improvement is so subtle, I am not going to spend $1200 on an amp - diminishing returns! Monolith is around $399 so it seems like a good value. And it is 3 channels so I will get more use out of it when watching TV and movies. It gives me a small improvement with dialog - again, very subtle. Could be in my head, tbh. Confirmation bias and all.

On the other hand, I can't find too much info on the amp and I am not sure if it is a good value at this price. I don't mind buying used, and I see several integrated amps on marketplace too. I already have a receiver so don't see much point in buying an integrated.

 

[Chrispy]

That a blind testing?

 

[yelloguy]

Not at all. Not even an A/B comparison. Sorry.

I have listened to the AVR in 2.1 Stereo for music for some 10 months. So I am very familiar with the sound. But no, I wouldn't claim this to be any scientific evidence. I use an SPL meter app on my iPhone to estimate the volume levels to average around 75dB. I am seated about 10 feet away and the speakers are about 10 feet apart and about 1.5 feet from the front wall. I got a beautiful sound with the AVR with wide airy soundstage. I had no complaints before.

My friend challenged me to listen with an actual amp and I think I hear a sonic improvement. I am playing the same music (FLAC files) I am used to listening. I probably need another couple of listening sessions and maybe I will try going back to the AVR for AB comparison to be sure.

 

[Chrispy]

Not at all. Not even an A/B comparison. Sorry.

I have listened to the AVR in 2.1 Stereo for music for some 10 months. So I am very familiar with the sound. But no, I wouldn't claim this to be any scientific evidence. I use an SPL meter app on my iPhone to estimate the volume levels to average around 75dB. I am seated about 10 feet away and the speakers are about 10 feet apart and about 1.5 feet from the front wall. I got a beautiful sound with the AVR with wide airy soundstage. I had no complaints before.

My friend challenged me to listen with an actual amp and I think I hear a sonic improvement. I am playing the same music (FLAC files) I am used to listening. I probably need another couple of listening sessions and maybe I will try going back to the AVR for AB comparison to be sure.

Sonic memory isn't particularly reliable. Did you re-run Audyssey or do other setup addressing levels? Or just plugged the amp into the pre-outs and start playing? I've got a variety of avrs and external amps and don't find the types of differences you are noting. It could well be placebo. If I did use an external amp I'd want one that's more powerful, the Monolith is more similar to the avr's power. Audioholics testing of this series of amp here https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/monoprice-m5100-amp

 

[kemmler3D]

Could be in my head, tbh. Confirmation bias and all.

At your listening level the two amps are not likely to make an audible difference, especially not in the way you describe.

If you expect to hear something, you usually hear it. But AFAIK those speakers are sensitive enough and not super power-hungry so there's no reason to think the AVR would be struggling at 75dB.

 

[amper42]

ALL Monolith M3100X amplifiers exhibit excessive HF harmonic distortion in varying degrees and power supply hum via the unbalanced and XLR inputs. Maybe that's the sound that you appreciate? The amp is no more powerful than the Marantz AVR so my guess is you may have amp fever? Take a Tylenol, go for a walk and then listen without the external amp and it should sound just as good.

If you still need an external amp consider the Hypex NC502MP for a bit more kick and power than the AVR offers or Purifi if your budget grows. https://www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/amplifiers/hypex

 

[yelloguy]

Awesome! thanks for the feedback. Chrispy I have not yet re-run Audyssey but I don't listen to music in Audyssey Reference mode anyway. I use L/R Bypass mode for music as that gives me the B&W signature sound. Audyssey Reference makes the sound very focused. The sound stage still exists and I can tell the instruments apart. But the two speakers appear as one. L/R bypass mode seems more natural, and the new amp recreates the same effect.

It may very well be placebo. I will have to get up in the middle of a song and switch banana plugs to the back of my receiver to test this a bit more. But I take your point. It is not a night a day difference. And I am not sure if it will ever be - even with those 500W buckeyes. I have listened to a NAD 3050 and a Marantz Cinema 50 at a hi-fi store (with multiple speakers) and I get a very comparable sound - if not better - at home.

 

[Chrispy]

Awesome! thanks for the feedback. Chrispy I have not yet re-run Audyssey but I don't listen to music in Audyssey Reference mode anyway. I use L/R Bypass mode for music as that gives me the B&W signature sound. Audyssey Reference makes the sound very focused. The sound stage still exists and I can tell the instruments apart. But the two speakers appear as one. L/R bypass mode seems more natural, and the new amp recreates the same effect.

It may very well be placebo. I will have to get up in the middle of a song and switch banana plugs to the back of my receiver to test this a bit more. But I take your point. It is not a night a day difference. And I am not sure if it will ever be - even with those 500W buckeyes. I have listened to a NAD 3050 and a Marantz Cinema 50 at a hi-fi store (with multiple speakers) and I get a very comparable sound - if not better - at home.

Audyssey was thinking more of just using to level match the external amp to the onboard amps. Do you use the Audyssey Editor App? More versatile than just L/R Bypass.

You could maybe try running the left/right speakers so that one is on the external amp one on the internal amp for comparison, altho there's not a quick way to change balance particularly, maybe use different inputs and switch back and forth on input. Not surprising that avrs generally sound the same aside from their dsp, tho.

 

[yelloguy]

Ya I thought of level matching. In the end I looked at the volume levels usually I listen at (-15) and the SPL pressure it was showing (75dB avg) and decided to call it a day. The new amp gave me about the same SPL at the same volume (given my measurements are not very precise).

I have the Audyssey Multi-X phone app. I don't have the computer app. Not sure how the phone app might help.

I had not thought of running one speaker each. That is a clever idea. I can probably get close to the speakers and see if the difference is noticeable. I can also tell from the listening position if one side sounds substantially different from the other. I will give that a go in the next couple of days. I guess Zone A B could help with one speaker in each zone. But I think I will run them both at once with a different amp and see what happens.

 

[Chrispy]

Ya I thought of level matching. In the end I looked at the volume levels usually I listen at (-15) and the SPL pressure it was showing (75dB avg) and decided to call it a day. The new amp gave me about the same SPL at the same volume (given my measurements are not very precise).

I have the Audyssey Multi-X phone app. I don't have the computer app. Not sure how the phone app might help.

I had not thought of running one speaker each. That is a clever idea. I can probably get close to the speakers and see if the difference is noticeable. I can also tell from the listening position if one side sounds substantially different from the other. I will give that a go in the next couple of days. I guess Zone A B could help with one speaker in each zone. But I think I will run them both at once with a different amp and see what happens.

Just that slight level differences tend to have the slightly louder one perceived as "better". Didn't know multi-x was available as a phone app, thought that was only available as a pc program....you sure about that? The editor app can be useful in limiting the frequency you're eq'g (like just limiting it to schroeder).

 

[yelloguy]

Sorry the app is called MultiEQ on the phone. The -X is for the PC. I think.

I realize "louder seems better" and am trying to avoid that. But it is hard. Other than spending a lot of time and energy setting up proper ABX testing, there is no reliable way of comparing - and even ABX is not entirely fool proof as listening sensitivity varies from time to time.

I tried limiting Audyssey to 500Hz and below. But then I decided the L/R Bypass was an easier way to get the sound I wanted. I leave it set to Audyssey Reference for the source I use for watching tv/movies.

 

[Chrispy]

Sorry the app is called MultiEQ on the phone. The -X is for the PC. I think.

I realize "louder seems better" and am trying to avoid that. But it is hard. Other than spending a lot of time and energy setting up proper ABX testing, there is no reliable way of comparing - and even ABX is not entirely fool proof as listening sensitivity varies from time to time.

I tried limiting Audyssey to 500Hz and below. But then I decided the L/R Bypass was an easier way to get the sound I wanted. I leave it set to Audyssey Reference for the source I use for watching tv/movies.

Yeah the whole range of Audyssey products are MultEQ versions (like basic MultEQ, or XT or XT32), so you have the multeq editor app. I have used a variety of avrs with external amps, never found any appreciable difference outside of the power/impedance handling capabilities of the external amp.

 

[yelloguy]

never found any appreciable difference outside of the power/impedance handling capabilities of the external amp

That is very interesting! Thanks for sharing that.

So there is no point in trying out a Bryston or a Rotel? People are always going on about these brands like they are something special. My drug audio dealer told me to get an integrated amp in place of an AVR for music. I realize he makes his money selling stuff. That is why I come to these enthusiast forums.

 

[amper42]

That is very interesting! Thanks for sharing that.

So there is no point in trying out a Bryston or a Rotel? People are always going on about these brands like they are something special. My drug audio dealer told me to get an integrated amp in place of an AVR for music. I realize he makes his money selling stuff. That is why I come to these enthusiast forums.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, but I much prefer using the RME ADI-2 DAC FS with Purifi amp in stereo with Revel F328Be speakers for music than using my Denon 4700H. I leave the AVR off unless I'm watching a movie. The ADI-2 is noticeably cleaner sounding with my system. Your drug dealer may not have been lying to you. But, I certainly wouldn't use an integrated amp when the ADI-2 does it better with the Purifi.

 

[yelloguy]

RME ADI-2 DAC FS with Purifi amp

That is over $2500 for the setup. The Revel's deserve it. I can't spend more than I spent on my speakers on the DAC.

I can maybe get a SMSL SU-1 and feed its output to the Monolith. Or a Topping E50. Is there even any point in doing that?

 

[yelloguy]

So I played one speaker from each app at the same time today. There is NO difference at all. I can sit in the middle and enjoy the well balanced sound if my OCD would let me.

 

[Chrispy]

That is very interesting! Thanks for sharing that.

So there is no point in trying out a Bryston or a Rotel? People are always going on about these brands like they are something special. My drug audio dealer told me to get an integrated amp in place of an AVR for music. I realize he makes his money selling stuff. That is why I come to these enthusiast forums.

lol drug dealer is close to the way they're sold I suppose. Bryston may have a longevity advantage....they do offer a 20 year warranty. Mostly I don't worry about that, usually failures are earlier than later. Amp brand comparison is like dick size comparison all too often....not a lot of knowledge involved.

 

[yelloguy]

Amp brand comparison is like dick size comparison

So, big and heavy then? Got it!