Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[MattHooper]

You are aware that there is a "Turntables, Phono Amplifier, Cartridge Review" sub-forum here, and that @amirm reviews analog source equipment?

​

Every forum has some few self-appointed gate-keepers. Perhaps behind the scenes Sal is lobbying Amir to drop that execrable, backwards-looking part of the ASR forum. I'm sure it's just an embarrassment to the SOTA-Or-Bust crowd.

 

[egellings]

I suffer turntables for what they deliver, only when necessary, and nothing more...

I don't suffer mine; I enjoy it. I put together a setup with a used Thorens turntable that I lovingly brought back to life, separate arm and MC cartridge, fed through a home-brewed RIAA preamp, made with a low noise JFET (0.9nV/radical Hz) bootstrapped with an AD797 op amp followed by two more AD797s. HF EQ is done passively in the first stage, and LF EQ is done using feedback in the 3rd stage. Second stage is a straight gain block with 3 switchable settings. That way, I can change the preamp's gain without affecting EQ accuracy. It's capable of excellent sound. It's also capable of lousy sound. Depends on the recording and the record's physical condition. The best of the vinyl can rival digital media in perceived (key word, there) accuracy; The worst is, well, the worst in SQ. Once S.Q. gets so good that I would not be able to hear an improvement anymore, then I don't care about that outside of an academic interest in it. I'm not a digiphobe, either, as I work in the electronics industry and know how good it can get. So, I enjoy a streamer, a CD player, FM radio, and vinyl. As for turntables, if you don't like them, then simply sniff at such goings on and pass them by.

 

[AdrianusG]

Today's CD players are a huge letdown. Even a low to middle of the pack player in the late '80s through '90s allowed for easy track programming (and many had indexing, if you cared about it). They all came with a readout that showed actual user oriented information, other than the current track number and time. Now, you can say that the new ones have better specs, but chasing specs as a practical 'in your living room' matter is pretty meaningless, at least as far as your ears go. And if that's important, just use 'digits out' and hook the stream to a inexpensive but SOA DAC.

Actually, comparing today's hi-fi with what you used to get is pretty dismal for most types of gear. You just got 'more' for your dollar back when hi-fi was important. Compare Yamaha's latest and greatest $6000.00 machine with one of their mid tier machines that sold for $1500.00 in '87.

[Two points: 1) Whether anyone will be making record players (or CD players) in 200 years?. Your guess is as good as mine, or anyone's for that matter. Certainly the actual disc will last a long time, depending upon how well the plastic holds up and the care one takes. I've read that data integrity of a CD is between 100-200 years; records at least 100 years. Who knows? We won't be around to tell. 2) hand crank Victrolas probably all suffer from metal fatigue in their wind up mechanism, so you have to be careful with that. ]

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You are absolutely right about those 2 machines, regardless of how well they perform, the second one is a work of art, beautiful machine.

 

[MattHooper]

I don't suffer mine; I enjoy it. I put together a setup with a used Thorens turntable that I lovingly brought back to life, separate arm and MC cartridge, fed through a home-brewed RIAA preamp, made with a low noise JFET (0.9nV/radical Hz) bootstrapped with an AD797 op amp followed by two more AD797s. HF EQ is done passively in the first stage, and LF EQ is done using feedback in the 3rd stage. Second stage is a straight gain block with 3 switchable settings. That way, I can change the preamp's gain without affecting EQ accuracy. It's capable of excellent sound. It's also capable of lousy sound. Depends on the recording and the record's physical condition. The best of the vinyl can rival digital media in perceived (key word, there) accuracy; The worst is, well, the worst in SQ. Once S.Q. gets so good that I would not be able to hear an improvement anymore, then I don't care about that outside of an academic interest in it. I'm not a digiphobe, either, as I work in the electronics industry and know how good it can get. So, I enjoy a streamer, a CD player, FM radio, and vinyl. As for turntables, if you don't like them, then simply sniff at such goings on and pass them by.

Same, the idea that using my turntable or spinning vinyl, or in sonic terms that I would be "suffering" to hear the music is entirely different from my experience.

 

[egellings]

Same, the idea that using my turntable or spinning vinyl, or in sonic terms that I would be "suffering" to hear the music is entirely different from my experience.

If one suffers vinyl, then all I can say is, you poor abused thing.

 

[atmasphere]

Especially since, as you say, EVs are just as old tech as ICEs.

The first land speed record over 60mph was outside of Paris, set by an EV about 1898.

Edison and Ford announced an EV in 1912 that could cruise at 60mph with a 100 mile range using nickle-iron batteries. Edison's laboratory burned to the ground 2 weeks later, essentially ending his career. 1200 gallons of alcohol was found in one room that did not burn; no-one knew where it came from.

 

[Anton D]

If one suffers vinyl, then all I can say is, you poor abused thing.

It’s a hobby.

The death grip vinylphobic culture is pretty amazing, people get so triggered by folks who like to play records.

Can someone expand and edify? Why is someone else enjoying playing records such a trigger for these anti-vinyl evangelists?

I don’t see metal heads marching against classical music lovers.

Would a thread about an acoustic jazz renaissance compel these types of people to troll about classic rock being better?

 

[tmtomh]

This thread increasingly feels like a lock groove.

 

[Robin L]

Just wait until the shellac renaissance comes along:

 

[dmilller]

I've read most of this thread.

No one mentions the physical album and the album art. My daughter uses records for wall decorations. I like that. We lost a tangible connection to music when we went to CD.

But unfortunately not only was I gifted Dave Matthews last Christmas, but it's on vinyl. I'm questioning the quality of my child rearing.

Serious technical question: Is the phono-in on my Denon 3600 line level or phono? I may need to hook up my old turntable to play some f-ing Dave Matthews at Christmas. Do the typical turntables the hipsters buy today contain a preamp?

 

[Robin L]

I've read most of this thread.

No one mentions the physical album and the album art. My daughter uses records for wall decorations. I like that. We lost a tangible connection to music when we went to CD.

But unfortunately not only was I gifted Dave Matthews last Christmas, but it's on vinyl. I'm questioning the quality of my child rearing.

Serious technical question: Is the phono-in on my Denon 3600 line level or phono? I may need to hook up my old turntable to play some f-ing Dave Matthews at Christmas. Do the typical turntables the hipsters buy today contain a preamp?

A lot of the turntables everybody's buying these days have built in phono stages. If a receiver has a "phono input" that almost invariably means it's a phono stage. The Audio Technica turntables mostly have built in phono stages along with cartridges installed and aligned. Their cheaper models are a safe bet for people who aren't committed to go all the way with LPs and turntables. If you have an old turntable that you haven't used in years, it's probably a good idea to replace the phono cartridge or at least the stylus.

Turntables

www.audio-technica.com

 

[egellings]

I've read most of this thread.

No one mentions the physical album and the album art. My daughter uses records for wall decorations. I like that. We lost a tangible connection to music when we went to CD.

But unfortunately not only was I gifted Dave Matthews last Christmas, but it's on vinyl. I'm questioning the quality of my child rearing.

Serious technical question: Is the phono-in on my Denon 3600 line level or phono? I may need to hook up my old turntable to play some f-ing Dave Matthews at Christmas. Do the typical turntables the hipsters buy today contain a preamp?

If it's labeled 'phono', then that is likely just what it's for. If in doubt, you can safely plug your TT into it and give a listen. If you hear a very low volume, tinny sound with no bass, then the 'phono' input was meant to be used with an external phono preamp. You won't harm anything by just trying it. Of course, use a low volume setting on the amplifier when experimenting. I've not seen an input labeled 'phono' that did not take a turntable directly plugged into it.

 

[MattHooper]

I've read most of this thread.

My deep condolences.

No one mentions the physical album and the album art. My daughter uses records for wall decorations. I like that. We lost a tangible connection to music when we went to CD.

It's been mentioned in the thread. I cited the aesthetics of vinyl artwork, and the packaging and design to be something I enjoy, in my

Original answer to the thread question, on page 2.

I also love coloured vinyl, which can look awesome.

(I just noticed my personal explanation for my vinyl revival, and how it relates to the wider revival, has 34 "thumbs up" so, despite some notable hold outs, it seems numerous readers understood the position).

Not to mention, I opened that post with this statement:

"First, if you are trying to make sense of the vinyl renaissance, you are least likely to get an accurate answer from someone who doesn't care for vinyl. We tend to be pretty poor at understanding why other people do things that we personally don't care for, and thus tend to resort to more facile "explanations" (e.g. "it's just a hipster thing" or whatever)."

And I think we ended up seeing plenty of just that, in this thread (mixed in also with plenty of insightful commentary from many).

 

[tmtomh]

I've read most of this thread.

My deep condolences.

Matt, that part of your response alone warranted a Like.

 

[Newman]

Every forum has some few self-appointed gate-keepers. Perhaps behind the scenes Sal is lobbying Amir to drop that execrable, backwards-looking part of the ASR forum. I'm sure it's just an embarrassment to the SOTA-Or-Bust crowd.

^^^^^ IRONY ALERT….beep, beep, beep!

To be honest, I hope we are all, or at least largely, gatekeepers to the principle of keeping audio science at the forefront of discussions on ASR.

cheers

 

[Robin L]

"First, if you are trying to make sense of the vinyl renaissance, you are least likely to get an accurate answer from someone who doesn't care for vinyl. We tend to be pretty poor at understanding why other people do things that we personally don't care for, and thus tend to resort to more facile "explanations" (e.g. "it's just a hipster thing" or whatever)."

When CDs first appeared, I was totally in the LP camp, in spite of being a classical music lover, therefore more likely to be attracted to the steadier pitch and silent backgrounds of CDs. Becoming one of those who no longer care for vinyl took time. I would say I can give accurate answers why there has been a limited resurgence in the sales of LPs without being on the vinyl bandwagon.

 

[Sal1950]

^^^^^ IRONY ALERT….beep, beep, beep!
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To be honest, I hope we are all, or at least largely, gatekeepers to the principle of keeping audio science at the forefront of discussions on ASR.

cheers

LOL, Ain't that a fact. We're not the ones who scours the internet and print media for ever more
news on the silly vinyl sales boom simply looking to throw gas on the fire. Who gives a rodents behind?
Folks are also buying tons of ever more expensive power cords, interconnects and speaker cables, etc;
and the folks at Synergistic Research are getting richer every day on the backs of the unknowing and uneducated.
Be sure to get some magic dots to toss around your TT and preamp, vinyl just doesn't make the grade without them. LOLOOLOL

 

[Anton D]

To be honest, I hope we are all, or at least largely, gatekeepers to the principle of keeping audio science at the forefront of discussions on ASR.

cheers

Do you guys wear white lab coats or neural nets while sitting in your listening chairs?

How do you folks measure which music is best? (No saying 'subjectively,' this is science. FMRI measurements, perhaps?

Non-snarky question: what percentage 'better' is digital than analog? They both give me great pleasure, but I don't sit around perseverating about "betterness" or this "audibly perfect" BS I see people mention. My pleasure with either is about equal, I am having fun and listening to music. (I know that's terrible, to the vinyl triggered crowd.)

Trying to enjoy any medium to the point we prefer is perfectly within the realm of "science," you know. The goal is fun and enjoyment, after all. Let's measure that, while we are at it.

Perhaps we can compare a graph or 100 comparing vinyl to 'perfect Atmos, digital, whatever' and calculate a difference. Let's actually bring 'science' into it! Then, we can relax, say that digital is "X" percent better than vinyl, and leave people to enjoy what they like.

 

[MattHooper]

^^^^^ IRONY ALERT….beep, beep, beep!
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View attachment 325316

To be honest, I hope we are all, or at least largely, gatekeepers to the principle of keeping audio science at the forefront of discussions on ASR.

cheers

You are hallucinating again.

LOL, Ain't that a fact. We're not the ones who scours the internet and print media for ever more
news on the silly vinyl sales boom simply looking to throw gas on the fire.

Posting updates about the continued upward trajectory of vinyl sales in a thread devoted to discussing the Vinyl Renaissance is hardly off topic. More to the point, it has nothing to do with GATEKEEPING, in terms of suggesting this forum is only about investigating SOTA gear, and that one should admit they aren't an audiophile for enjoying vinyl.

Anyone should be able to write whatever they want in this thread. As I've said before, in terms of how I respond to posts, I have no qualm whatsoever with anyone who even flat out hates vinyl, so long as they are speaking for themselves (and aren't overreaching with claimed facts). "For me vinyl sucks, it's antiquated technology, it's a lower fidelity medium than digital, it's a hassle, it suffers all sorts of technical and sonic liabilities like noise artifacts, raised noise floor, I hate ticks and pops and crackle, it's limited in dynamic and frequency range, I hate wow and flutter, setting up cartridges, keeping records clean...etc...it all sucks, sucks, sucks!"

To that my attitude is: Ok, cool. I totally understand. Those are all liabilities that ruin it for you, and it would be really silly for YOU to play vinyl records.

It's only if someone starts generalizing their claims, as if it's just as silly for others to enjoy vinyl, or to even enjoy the sound, and to make claims about the nature of vinyl where I have another view. Then, I'll add my point of view as counterbalance.

As so many have pointed out to you and Newman, it's the continued denigration, implicit and explicit, of the vinyl revival (how dare all those youngsters and hipsters ruin threaten the march of progress by falling for the vinyl revival!) and ASR members enthusiasm for vinyl, that draws forth the eye-rolls.

 

[Robin L]

Non-snarky question: what percentage 'better' is digital than analog?

The percentage that doesn't skip, click or wow, not to mention the percentage that doesn't display the sonic degradation of groove wear or IGD.