Bookshelf speakers for low volume & near-field listening?

[abdo123]

In my understanding of the subject this is not entirely true - though the source of original vibration may be relatively small, it is rarely a point source. Natural sound sources also have secondary sources of sound radiation. E.g. on a piano the bat hitting a string will be the main source (still not a point though since the whole string vibrates in a complex way) but the body of the instrument will also resonate and radiate sound. Here's an example of some investigation into this that I was able to find quickly.
Real instruments / sound sources typically also have complex sound radiation patterns that are probably futile to try and mimic with loudspeakers - I'm not even sure that would be a valid design goal - given that the full 3D soundfield of the instrument was never captured in the first place when recording it.
That is not meant to say that coaxial loudspeakers are not good or better - just that I don't believe we can directly extrapolate from natural sound sources when speaking of speakers (pun intended ).

how about we go one step further up the chain? it's very unusual to record an instrument with more than one mic, so to reproduce a single microphone recording with more than one point source / diaphragms is not really as exact is it?

 

[dominikz]

how about we go one step further up the chain? it's very unusual to record an instrument with more than one mic, so to reproduce a single microphone recording with more than one point source / diaphragms is not really as exact is it?

Is it? In my experience with sound and music recording it is not unusual to record a source with multiple microphones - starting with basic stereo recording techniques, to room microphones to drumsets (with their overhead and spot microphones and various cross-bleed issues).

But even if it was common to almost always record every instrument/source with just a single microphone I'm not sure we could directly extrapolate what that means with regard to loudspeaker driver arrangement. There is of course the need for driver integration for pleasant listening, but it seems that one doesn't have to move too far away from most bookshelf-size speakers for that to happen.

Don't get me wrong - I can understand where you're coming from, and the points you raise are reasonable, I'm just not sure there is enough research currently available to back these assumptions (or at least I'm not aware of it). Do coaxial speakers consistently perform better in properly conducted blind listening tests for preference?

 

[thewas]

Do coaxial speakers consistently perform better in properly conducted blind listening tests for preference?

I would guess that is hard to a real fundamental research comparison as one would have to find represents of each class with the approximately same horizontal and vertical directivities and all other distortions under the limits of audibility. In that theoretic case I would guess that if one would perform audibly better it would be the coaxial one, but on the other hand with a coaxial design it is very hard to implement different horizontal and vertical directivities which can be an advantage in some listening setups.

 

[abdo123]

Is it? In my experience with sound and music recording it is not unusual to record a source with multiple microphones - starting with basic stereo recording techniques, to room microphones to drumsets (with their overhead and spot microphones and various cross-bleed issues).

But even if it was common to almost always record every instrument/source with just a single microphone I'm not sure we could directly extrapolate what that means with regard to loudspeaker driver arrangement. There is of course the need for driver integration for pleasant listening, but it seems that one doesn't have to move too far away from most bookshelf-size speakers for that to happen.

Don't get me wrong - I can understand where you're coming from, and the points you raise are reasonable, I'm just not sure there is enough research currently available to back these assumptions (or at least I'm not aware of it). Do coaxial speakers consistently perform better in properly conducted blind listening tests for preference?

each of these microphones would constitute one channel though or would be constructed into one object if we're talking Dolby Atmos, not one diaphragm on a multi-way speaker.

 

[abdo123]

it is very hard to implement different horizontal and vertical directivities which can be an advantage in some listening setups.

in what circumstance would that be considered an advantage instead of coloration? I'm curious.

 

[thewas]

in what circumstance would that be considered an advantage instead of coloration? I'm curious.

Most usual listening rooms where the floor and roof reflection is unfortunately much closer than the side walls one. On the other hand, why would a continuous and smooth but just different horizontal and vertical directivity be a coloration?

 

[abdo123]

why would a continuous and smooth but just different horizontal and vertical directivity be a coloration?

because usually there is no smooth vertical directivity without a coaxial design, or something like Tom Danley's Synergy horn. when (vertical) directivity is not controlled different frequencies (lets say instruments) will fluctuate in size in the sound stage. in some extreme cases even the harmonics of the same instrument would sound larger than the fundemental.

I consider that coloration (even if it's entertaining sometimes).

 

[thewas]

because usually there is no smooth vertical directivity without a coaxial design, or something like Tom Danley's Synergy horn. when (vertical) directivity is not controlled different frequencies (lets say instruments) will fluctuate in size in the sound stage. in some extreme cases even the harmonics of the same instrument would sound larger than the fundemental.

I consider that coloration (even if it's entertaining sometimes).

Yes, in usual non-coaxial configurations you have a peak at the vertical directivity at the crossover point as usually the driver spacing is higher than the corresponding wavelength, but there can be exceptions like the Danley or for example this http://hannover-hardcore.de/infinity_classics/!!!/Quasikoax 1 Dokumentation.pdf

And I agree that this can be sound as a coloration, but on the other hand higher reflections from the floor and ceiling are also increased colorations, everything is a compromise.

 

[FeddyLost]

it's very unusual to record an instrument with more than one mic

Currently it's common solution even for acoustic instruments.
I know one hi-fi enthusiast, he made big DIY D'Appolito Dunlavy-like speakers with time alignment and expected linear phase, and totally diffusing listening room around them.
All stereo records made with stereo pair of microphones (his main collection) sound impressive and correct. A lot of modern material is a fuzzy patchwork mess with edgy clipping sticking out.
So, listener need to account his preferences when strive for concept perfection.

 

[Jim Matthews]

Here’s another one for you.
Whipping out some Python code has never been so groovy.

View attachment 140701

You cooking in that chair, too?
(Conflated separate posts)

 

[dominikz]

each of these microphones would constitute one channel though or would be constructed into one object if we're talking Dolby Atmos, not one diaphragm on a multi-way speaker.

Sure, it was just a response to:

it's very unusual to record an instrument with more than one mic, so to reproduce a single microphone recording with more than one point source / diaphragms is not really as exact is it?

As I said, I did get what you were aiming for and see merit to it - I'm just not convinced that one can extrapolate conclusions on ideal loudspeaker construction directly from the natural source radiation pattern or typical microphone arrangement during recording. But I've been wrong before

 

[redshift]

You cooking in that chair, too?

Perhaps if you provided a list of what is readily available in your locale?

If you're importing anything into Japan, it's multiples over the base price.

Yep, mostly bicycle chains in paraffin and Teflon. Wanna taste? You’ll sh1t lubricated steel bars.

 

[Sakelccc]

Perhaps if you provided a list of what is readily available in your locale?

80% of "major brand" speakers are available here so can't really list all of them.
as for prices it's baffling we get KEF LS50 metas for $1300 whereas R3s cost $2600. same applies to Focal, Revel etc as well. don't know where that difference comes from

 

[redshift]

80% of "major brand" speakers are available here so can't really list all of them.
as for prices it's baffling we get KEF LS50 metas for $1300 whereas R3s cost $2600. same applies to Focal, Revel etc as well. don't know where that difference comes from

Perhaps bring them with you from gaijinland the next time you’re checking out how the whitey schmucks are doing?

P.S. Make sure there are only, and only speakers and definitely a distinct absence of automotive execs in that box!!!

 

[Jim Matthews]

80% of "major brand" speakers are available here so can't really list all of them.
as for prices it's baffling we get KEF LS50 metas for $1300 whereas R3s cost $2600. same applies to Focal, Revel etc as well. don't know where that difference comes from

Duties based on country of origin play some role in this, no doubt.

FWIW - if you're listening at low levels, application of more bass might help your satisfaction level with your Yammies. That wee 5" driver is likely some dB down from the horn loaded tweeter, at neighborly levels.

What's your data source?

https://ledgernote.com/columns/mixing-mastering/fletcher-munson-curve/

 

[Sakelccc]

gaijinland

nearly died laughing

 

[Offler]

80% of "major brand" speakers are available here so can't really list all of them.
as for prices it's baffling we get KEF LS50 metas for $1300 whereas R3s cost $2600. same applies to Focal, Revel etc as well. don't know where that difference comes from

I have heard that there is a lot of music afficionados in Japan. Maybe thats it.

Just out of curiosity, how much for Elac DBR-62?

They were 600 Euros for a pair in most shops here...

 

[Sakelccc]

I have heard that there is a lot of music afficionados in Japan. Maybe thats it.

Just out of curiosity, how much for Elac DBR-62?

They were 600 Euros for a pair in most shops here...

cheapest i found is just under 600 euros!

 

[Walter]

Oh, come on. I want a tube amp because they can be made to look steampunk.

View attachment 140689

Not sure about the speakers though.

Just need to repurpose the speakers as the top half of a steampunk Linkwitz LXmini!