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Bits are NOT bits ….. or ?

BitPerfect_

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If you put the streamer in ” pre amp mode ” then ALL material from spdif digital out is 48 KHz . And the volume can be changed from the spdif output . There is some kind of SRC in YSS952 going on in that case.

Even if you use the Direct function of WXC in Pre Amp Mode? thanks,
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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Even if you use the Direct function of WXC in Pre Amp Mode? thanks,
Yes unfortunately .
A good thing is when you use the wxc50 in ” player mode ” there is no sample rate conversion going on inside the Yamaha . Digital out from wxc50 from toslink or spdif electrical then follows the sampling rate of the input.

Yesterday I did some more experiment with IPhone /Apple Music lossless into the ” sky song ” USB bridge and optical in to the Yamaha wxc50 in ” player mode ” , and the good thing is that I can use the USB bridge as a volume control from my iPhone , regulating the volume in the Yamahas dac . And the sample rate follows the sample rate of the input.

The sound gets slightly better from Yamaha wxc50 in player mode using it as a dac, than in pre amp mode . The preamp stage inside Yamaha is good but not really good.

So my conclusion is :
Yamaha wxc50 in pre amp mode is not highend but rather good . That conlusion can be drawn using both digital out from the Yamaha into my Genelecs and with the inbuilt dac in the Yamaha , using a power amp and passive loudspeakers.

In player mode , the dac in Yamaha , using toslink in, follows the sample rate of the input and the sound gets slightly better.
More natural and slightly better in the high frequencies when using my Genelec 8340.

The Yamaha wxc50 would be a ” kick ass” product if they had used a better samplerate converter inside the unit.
Why they didnt use the volumecontrol thats inbuilt in the dac ESS 9006 is a mistery, but they didnt , they used another chip YSS952 as can be seen in the service manual. In pre amp mode it converts everything to 48 KHz.
 
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BitPerfect_

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Thank you for sharing this valuable info.
I am in the same situation having a WXC-50 and an external DAC (Ares II).
I usually listen files stored on external HDD using the Yamaha USB input and Apple Music via AirPlay which as far as I've read, luckily will receive 16/44.1 . I also have in consideration Spotify Hi-fi when will be available via Spotify connect or AirPlay 1 (16/44.1).

Today, reading your posts, I've found that WXC, actually will not output 24/192 via Optical/Coax in Preamp mode, down-sampling to 48 kHz.
In any case, in the end It looks like the DAC will receive 16/48 in this setup no matter what source I'll use.

Your solution using the Sky song bridge is great, congrats!
In my case, I have to recognize that I hate wires :)

I know that having a Lightning to usb 3 camera adaptor I am able to send 24/192 from Apple Music using the iPad, directly to the Ares II DAC, by-passing the Yamaha streamer but I won't be able to use the iPad freely, it will be stuck near the other devices.

The question is,
- It matters if I fed the external DAC with 16/44.1-48 or 24/192, the difference could be noticeable better?

I am asking because, in OS mode (which I use), according to Ares II manual, the PCM 44.1kHz or 48kHz based audio data are up-sampled to the maximum rate of PCM1411.2 or PCM1536.
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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Thank you for sharing this valuable info.
I am in the same situation having a WXC-50 and an external DAC (Ares II).
I usually listen files stored on external HDD using the Yamaha USB input and Apple Music via AirPlay which as far as I've read, luckily will receive 16/44.1 . I also have in consideration Spotify Hi-fi when will be available via Spotify connect or AirPlay 1 (16/44.1).

Today, reading your posts, I've found that WXC, actually will not output 24/192 via Optical/Coax in Preamp mode, down-sampling to 48 kHz.
In any case, in the end It looks like the DAC will receive 16/48 in this setup no matter what source I'll use.

Your solution using the Sky song bridge is great, congrats!
In my case, I have to recognize that I hate wires :)

I know that having a Lightning to usb 3 camera adaptor I am able to send 24/192 from Apple Music using the iPad, directly to the Ares II DAC, by-passing the Yamaha streamer but I won't be able to use the iPad freely, it will be stuck near the other devices.

The question is,
- It matters if I fed the external DAC with 16/44.1-48 or 24/192, the difference could be noticeable better?

I am asking because, in OS mode (which I use), according to Ares II manual, the PCM 44.1kHz or 48kHz based audio data are up-sampled to the maximum rate of PCM1411.2 or PCM1536.
In Yamaha in pre-amp mode there is SRC from all material at 44,1 KHz or other frequencies to 48 KHz . That conversion CAN be done well without any audible concerns, but that is not the case for the Yamaha wxc50.

Its a bit different using Yamaha wxc50 in player mode without SRC and volume regulation in the digital domain, where it sounds very good as a digital drive .

You can always use the wxc50 in player mode and take the digital signal ( spdif ) from the Yamaha to your Ares II with a slightly better result, It will at least be bitcorrect with no SRC and soundwise maybe on pair with bluesound and other streamers in that pricerange.
Problem is then - where do you do the volume control ? A separate analog preamp could be a solution.

With better clocks and better isolation from source to dac there might be a further slightly improvement in the sound , soundwise there is a little more place in the soundstage and the stereoimage becomes slightly bigger - my experience.

I have done extensive comparisons between Apple Music lossless via AirPlay to Yamaha wxc50 ( a very neat solution )in preamp mode and the sound feeding my Genelecs 8340 digitaly from the Yamaha is rather good but not as good as having my iPhone - lightning cameraconnection kit - USB bridge with volume regulation in xu208 - digitaly to Genelec .

Im not sure if the Yamaha wxc50 implementation of airplay in preamp mode is done without SRC to 48 KHz .
 
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BitPerfect_

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You can always use the wxc50 in player mode and take the digital signal ( spdif ) from the Yamaha to your Aries II with a better result, It will at least be bitcorrect with no SRC and soundwise maybe on pair of bluesound and other streamers in that pricerange.

I'll try to see if there is noticeable difference between Player/Pre amp mode; If it's hard to tell, I'll stick with the Pre amp mode, in order to keep the volume control.

By the way, Spdif vs toslink in your oppinion?
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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I'll try to see if there is noticeable difference between Player/Pre amp mode; If it's hard to tell, I'll stick with the Pre amp mode, in order to keep the volume control.

By the way, Spdif vs toslink in your oppinion?
In the Yamaha wxc50 case, I cant hear any difference between toslink and electrical spdif out from the player to an external dac . The difference is between preamp mode and player mode .
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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I'll try to see if there is noticeable difference between Player/Pre amp mode; If it's hard to tell, I'll stick with the Pre amp mode, in order to keep the volume control.

By the way, Spdif vs toslink in your oppinion?
Please report back what you hear , Im´ very interested in the differences you might find.
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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Bitperfect - the best sound I can get with my gear right now is this :
Iphone - sky song on batterys - optical from sky song to Yamaha wxc50 optical in, ( in player mode, pre amp off. ) - digital spdif out to my Genelecs 8340 = the sampling frequency now follows the source material on Apple Music lossless :).

I can then use Yamaha as a dac to my subwoofers only, and from the analog output on the Yamaha feed my two subwoofers crossed at 42 Hz 48dB/oct in stereo.
The volume control globaly is done from the iphone driving the xu208 chip in sky song and doing 24 bit volume control.

The sound from this rather unpractical setup is superior compared with Apple Music via AirPlay to the Yamaha wxc50.
Apple music with AirPlay to the Yamaha in preamp mode, ”direct” on, does SRC to 48 kHz .

The small important clues to the details in the high registers is simply wanished with Airplay and Yamaha, it dont sound bad, but it dont sound really wonderful either. Thats a pity, cause the Yamaha wxc50 alone as preamp, streamer and dac is a really neat, practical solution.
DFA36ADB-F022-45A4-8DB2-4C2F3A6DFFF9.jpeg
 
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BitPerfect_

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Please report back what you hear , Im´ very interested in the differences you might find.

Back with details,
So yea, I’m not happy to say that but in Player mode, WXC sounds better vs Pre Amp mode. I thought that is a volume mismatch but not, It’s clear there is a difference. I’ve used the optical out and tested different songs playing from the external HDD files 16/44.1 up to 24/192.

In Pre Amp mode, everything is down sampled at 16/44.1 (48) there is no 24/88, 96, 192.

At this point it’s interesting to know the sky song is able to handle an external HDD with flac files? The other option is a DAC with digital volume control, keeping the WXC in the audio chain.
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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Back with details,
So yea, I’m not happy to say that but in Player mode, WXC sounds better vs Pre Amp mode. I thought that is a volume mismatch but not, It’s clear there is a difference. I’ve used the optical out and tested different songs playing from the external HDD files 16/44.1 up to 24/192.

At this point it’s interesting to know the sky song is able to handle an external HDD with flac files? The other option is a DAC with volume control, keeping the WXC in the audio chain.
Using an iPhone or iPad with Apple Music lossless, one can use the volume control in that devices when connected to lightning camera connection kit to the USB bridge sky song . The important thing I think , is then that the digital signal follows the sampling frequency on the source material. One can then use the wxc as a dac only , using the optical in connection in Yamaha , from optical out from the sky song.
But its a rather unpractical solution, compared to using the wxc50 as an all in one player.
Once one has heard the sound differences, its hard to go back to Yamaha wxc50 in ”pre amp” mode.
 

BitPerfect_

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By the way, Yamaha WXC-50 as far as I know, use AirPlay 1 but even in Player mode (via optical or coax) will output 48 not 44.1. At least this is what the DAC shows. Very strange.

This diagram shows 44.1 using AirPlay 1. Do you have a DAC to test this?
DD188F12-6076-408A-9369-EFC6F9E328CE.jpeg
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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By the way, Yamaha WXC-50 as far as I know, use AirPlay 1 but even in Player mode (via optical or coax) will output 48 not 44.1. At least this is what the DAC shows. Very strange.

This diagram shows 44.1 using AirPlay 1. Do you have a DAC to test this?
View attachment 158106
Yes , I have now tested with my Audient id14 ( Airplay from my iPhone to Yamaha and optical out from Yamaha to Audient id14+ computer ) and the display on the computer shows 48 kHz both when wxc50 is in pre-amp mode and player-mode.
What a pity.

Using optical into Yamaha, in player mode, the sampling rate, digital out from Yamaha follows the source material.
 

BitPerfect_

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I’ve found this device and I hope that this trend will be maintained. If AirPlay will be able to handle in the future 24/192, maybe something like this will be available and we will be able to use WXC-50 as a Player (HDD via USB and AppleMusic via AirPlay, bypassing the internal AirPlay protocol).
 

BitPerfect_

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By the way, which software app do you use to controll the volume in Sky song USB bridge?

Do you think that a similar result could be achieved using a Raspberry Pi 4 + a spdif hat instead of Sky song?

iPhone Apple Music 24/192 USB out > rPi 4B + spdif (volume control by the app) > Optical out > Optical in, WXC-50 in player mode > 24/192 > DAC
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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By the way, which software app do you use to controll the volume in Sky song USB bridge?

Do you think that a similar result could be achieved using a Raspberry Pi 4 + a spdif hat instead of Sky song?

iPhone Apple Music 24/192 USB out > rPi 4B + spdif (volume control by the app) > Optical out > Optical in, WXC-50 in player mode > 24/192 > DAC
Its ios volume-regulated from iPhone in Apple Music that regulate the digital volume in the sky song . I dont know how its done, but I also have tried my MAC with sky song and I can regulate the volume both in the computer AND in sky song - from the computer. I guess thats its done in the xu208 xmos IC .

Im sure digital volume regulation can be done really good in the software Volumio to rPi 4 .
 

lofiguy

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I came across this thread accidentally. What good timing. I just bought, and returned after 2 days, a WXC-50. I have great experience with WXA-50, I have 2 of them for I think 2 years now, and may buy 1-2 more. I was looking for a digital-only streamer and found the WXC-50. Oh how nicely it would complement my WXA-50s! And what a great form factor, fit and finish! And the price is really great too.

I only used it in player mode, so the preamp/resampling/balance problem is not a concern.

What I found is that the software was too buggy. Unbelievable for a product of this age. They've had forever to work out the bugs. Of course the Internet is full with such complaints but complaints are magnified so I wanted to see for myself.

Now I read this and see that it's also a basket case as a digital preamp. Doubly glad I returned it.

I didn't even get to the point of evaluating it on sonic qualities, which I'm sure in player mode is not even a concern.

I want to reiterate, I am very happy with the WXA though!

I’ve found this device and I hope that this trend will be maintained. If AirPlay will be able to handle in the future 24/192, maybe something like this will be available and we will be able to use WXC-50 as a Player (HDD via USB and AppleMusic via AirPlay, bypassing the internal AirPlay protocol).

Ooh, good find. You mean AirPlay 2 of course. AirPlay will never be able to support even 24/96. I think AirPlay 2 could support it (there is sufficient bandwidth) but don't hold your breath.
 

BitPerfect_

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By the way regarding the buggy app, if you use the ethernet cable, will be just fine. Indeed on wifi could be a pain depending on the position relative to the router, specially when we are using the internet radio, I have no idea why ( could be wifi interferences with near power cables or sources, a not-so-well configured router, etc). Otherwise the device it’s good imho, with all known limitations, compared with similar in this price range.

Too bad that the digital volume it’s not operable in Player mode.
 
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jjk1

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Yes , I have now tested with my Audient id14 ( Airplay from my iPhone to Yamaha and optical out from Yamaha to Audient id14+ computer ) and the display on the computer shows 48 kHz both when wxc50 is in pre-amp mode and player-mode.
What a pity.

Using optical into Yamaha, in player mode, the sampling rate, digital out from Yamaha follows the source material.
Question- does the Yamaha resample 16/44.1 ALAC tracks from Apple Music via airplay in “player mode”, or does it only resample other “lossles” tracks like 24/192 etc. I’m thinking of getting one for airplay1 only and plan to use player mode into an external DAC with volume control.
thanks
 

BitPerfect_

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In Player mode, the Apple Music ALAC sent via AirPlay 1, it will be resampled to 16/48.
The other lossless sent to WXC-50 via USB for example in Player mode, will have the sample rate unchanged (as the original source files). No volume control in Player mode.
 
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JayGilb

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The chip that does sample rate conversion AND volume control in Yamaha wxc50 is a yamaha chip.YSS952.
I thought at first that the volume control was done inside the ess dac, but the service manual for wxc50 shows different.
http://www.sinou-hk.com/datafile/2012121117415977716.pdf

http://user.faktiskt.io/RogerGustavsson/yamaha_wxa-50_wxc-50.pdf
It looks like the Yamaha DSP YSS952 chip was designed to be a wide ranging device for a big swath of Yamaha products.
I would not personally design a serious product around any DSP that has built-in sound effects for kid's toys.
Capture.PNG


A good SRC chip will produce inaudible results when converting. As much as people like to think they can hear the difference between 44.1 and 192, any good test will show they cannot.
 
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