Best Dac + streamer or alone?

[threni]

Well i can get the best architect and civil engineer and they would build the best and most beautiful building in the world. It wouldn’t matter where the construction workers are from. That’s why I wouldn’t use the iPhone as an example.

I don't really have a dog in this race, to be honest, as it wasn't me who first brought up the iPhone. But I don't think the issue is the nationality of the people building the iPhones, just the fact that it IS built within the country known as China. I didn't think that was up for discussion. (I think "assembled" is something of a weasel word. I could get 10 components manufactured in china, ship them to Spain, get someone to plug them together and then put "assembled in Spain" but I'm not sure what that would get me that I wouldn't get by doing so in China. Tax breaks, perhaps?)

I agree that the design is the most relevant part, and as long as the stuff getting made passes quality control that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned. That's why it doesn't matter to me where stuff is built. We could have had this exact same discussion 30 or 40 years ago except with Japan instead of China.

 

[abdo123]

I don't really have a dog in this race, to be honest, as it wasn't me who first brought up the iPhone. But I don't think the issue is the nationality of the people building the iPhones, just the fact that it IS built within the country known as China. I didn't think that was up for discussion. (I think "assembled" is something of a weasel word. I could get 10 components manufactured in china, ship them to Spain, get someone to plug them together and then put "assembled in Spain" but I'm not sure what that would get me that I wouldn't get by doing so in China. Tax breaks, perhaps?)

I agree that the design is the most relevant part, and as long as the stuff getting made passes quality control that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned. That's why it doesn't matter to me where stuff is built. We could have had this exact same discussion 30 or 40 years ago except with Japan instead of China.

i was mistaken btw, Apple assembles their products in China, but designs them in the US.

I completely agree with you.

 

[abdo123]

This is 2020. DACs are a mature technology

I agree, DACs have seen a tremendous amount of improvement on the commercial level.

I was absolutely shocked when Amir showed that the Apple USB-C dongle (10$) is capable of 96db SINAD, which is about what you need for the dynamic range of CD quality (which is very rarely used to its full potential anyway).

But honestly I don’t think DACs are something that can be inherently mature at one point (like vinyls for example). As things continue to change all the time in the digital realm. Stuff like MQA and Dolby pushes you to buy new DACs which supports these formats.

 

[tvrgeek]

This very forum has tested a great many DACs and lists them in order of performance. I bought two from the top of the list and sent both back. (SMSL and Topping) I then bought one a ways down that works perfectly. (Schiit) Had it not been for these reviews, I would never of heard of them. For about $100, you can buy one of many DACS that are far better than any human hearing. Many of the new DACS have features that support no known source of material, so not much point. Unless you have access to original studio master files, what good is 32 bits and 192K? I suspect the "good enough" was reached several generations ago in chips. So the difference is in external execution. Distortion levels of the newer chips are so low, the distortion of the resistors is larger and more variable.

If you have some bias on origin, Schiit is made in the US. I have no doubt the chips are made in China as that is where the foundries are. If you want no foreign origin, then better find a bag of 40 year old 2N2222's and build a ladder decoder. If lucky and careful, maybe get distortion and noise to exceed -20dB. The other DAC I almost bought was the JDS Atom. ( another company I would not have heard of without this forum) Personally, I reward ( purchase) products that perform as intended. I don't care if they are made in China or the Dutchy of Grand Fendwick. I will pay for a reputable company who stands behind their products and is responsive to customers. I found SMSL and Toping to fail on this account.

You can also buy a $35 Berhringer that is most likely better than human hearing. Designed in Germany, job-shopped to lowest bidder. Or you can spend 1000 times that on one with fancy magazine reviews in a billet machined case that probably performs no better.

Can't help you at all on streaming. I have tried a few services ( My music server is a PC) and find none worth listening to, let alone paying for. I have taken to turning off the internet on my server. No risk for virus, stable as is, and I was able to turn off about 3/4 of the background processes.

 

[raistlin65]

I agree, DACs have seen a tremendous amount of improvement on the commercial level.

I was absolutely shocked when Amir showed that the Apple USB-C dongle (10$) is capable of 96db SINAD, which is about what you need for the dynamic range of CD quality (which is very rarely used to its full potential anyway).

But honestly I don’t think DACs are something that can be inherently mature at one point (like vinyls for example). As things continue to change all the time in the digital realm. Stuff like MQA and Dolby pushes you to buy new DACs which supports these formats.

Reread my post. I acknowledge in the first paragraph that features might cause someone to pay more for a DAC device.

But those are digital processing things that don't even have to happen in the DAC component device. For example, your PS4 can do the Dolby decoding and send a PCM signal to your receiver for the DAC to process. MQA is just a compression format. It could be decompressed on your computer. But they would rather license it built into a DAC.

Meanwhile, the actual digital to analog converter is a mature technology.

 

[Sukie]

Sorry was not about prejudice here, is clear that iphones are assembled and produce in China, however even if more and more producers manufacturers hi end product there the feeling of made on west side for me is still a premium thing and I am glad to pay premium price to support my community, Europe or US. When I go through products reviewed here i have a feeling of producers who try to get to the level we reached here in terms of design, materials and components but they simply look cheap with cheap components and copy of west design gears. So sorry if I am frankly but the extra mile is reached by west company, we developed industrial products since centuries now and the level of design has no rival in east side, you can see in everything, from audio to clothes to food. For me cheap is cheap and is ok, but when you talk about audiophile thing there is a mix of price, design and technology and they will never reach this

Denying prejudice and then immediately displaying it is hardly an encouraging response.

I have the JDS Atom HPA, designed and made in the US. I like it, but it has been labelled as "cheap" by some "audiophiles" due to its plastic case and appearance. Topping products, on the other hand, all have metal cases. You make sweeping statements based on nationality - that is prejudice.

Your "history" lesson is also way off the mark. Who developed industrial products centuries ago? You need to be specific. And, more to the point, what has this do with with the engineering and design that we're looking at when it comes to DACs and streamers? I hardly think that the inventions of James Watt, James Hargreaves or Richard Arkwright have a huge bearing on which country produces the best audio equipment!

Feel free to spend as much money as you like on a locally-sourced DAC, but I suspect you'll end up paying an "audiophile" premium that has little to do with engineering or quality and absolutely nothing to do with industrial heritage.

 

[raistlin65]

I have the JDS Atom HPA, designed and made in the US. I like it, but it has been labelled as "cheap" by some "audiophiles" due to its plastic case and appearance.

You triggered me

It drives me nuts when people talk about the Atom having "poor build quality" because of the plastic case.

From an engineering design perspective, if the materials meet the functional needs of a device, it's not a build quality issue. The plastic does not impact the function of the amp. It's made to sit on a desktop. It doesn't need a more durable shell.

And ironically, the comment tends to come often from Schiit Magni fanboys, who conveniently forget to mention the QC issue with the scratchy volume knob that is common with that amp. It's okay if some people suffer with that, because they have a metal case.

Anyway, rant over. lol

 

[BeppeP]

Ok, if I got it right, best chip implementation is much better than the latest chip if not implemented. I used to have a Naim Nova and the Dac was decent but not amazing, problem was that I couldn’t use as preamp. Is the Okto DAC8 Stereo a pre amp? Can I plug monoblocks in class d? Why goes only to DSD 256? If I want to play today and Spotify do I need to use wifi? What is the chip used? Sabre?

thank you for all the time spent to give good advices.