Best Dac + streamer or alone?

[BeppeP]

Hello,

I would like to purchase a Dac from latest generation chip, from your opinion what is the best product in the market right now despite the price. I have mono block in class D so I need to have xlr out from Dac, is it a good idea to take something who has streaming feature or is waist of money? Is it better a Dac with one chip per channel? A Dac with class A as stage? I stream from tidal or Spotify
I need something who sound well the purest possible, in past I had naim nova and I felt nothing special and lack of XLR out.

thanks

Beppe

 

[somebodyelse]

The Okto DAC8 Stereo is the best measured here so far, and optionally includes a Raspberry Pi 4 to handle streaming. I'm not sure what they do for software, but I expect you could swap it for any of the Pi streamer distributions according to preference.

I'd keep the streamer and the DAC separate - a good DAC should work well for many years while the software support for the streamer may not last long. I don't think the master review index has a filter for balanced DACs but I may be wrong. Good balanced output DACs start around $200 with the Schiit Modius, Soncoz LA-QDX1 and maybe a few others. Beyond that you won't find much performance gain, and what there is probably isn't audible, so features, appearance, after sales support and local availability will be the major differentiators. Implementation matters more than how many chips it's using.

A decent DAC should me insensitive to the 'quality' of the upstream transport so long as it's within spec. Whether you go for something like a Raspberry Pi with one of the community maintained streaming distributions (PiCorePlayer, Volumio, Moode, Rune, Ropieee, etc.) or something on a commercial footing like the Bluesound Node 2i is more a matter of supported services, features and personal preference than audio quality.

 

[abdo123]

The Okto DAC8 Stereo is the best measured here so far, and optionally includes a Raspberry Pi 4 to handle streaming. I'm not sure what they do for software, but I expect you could swap it for any of the Pi streamer distributions according to preference.

I'd keep the streamer and the DAC separate - a good DAC should work well for many years while the software support for the streamer may not last long. I don't think the master review index has a filter for balanced DACs but I may be wrong. Good balanced output DACs start around $200 with the Schiit Modius, Soncoz LA-QDX1 and maybe a few others. Beyond that you won't find much performance gain, and what there is probably isn't audible, so features, appearance, after sales support and local availability will be the major differentiators. Implementation matters more than how many chips it's using.

A decent DAC should me insensitive to the 'quality' of the upstream transport so long as it's within spec. Whether you go for something like a Raspberry Pi with one of the community maintained streaming distributions (PiCorePlayer, Volumio, Moode, Rune, Ropieee, etc.) or something on a commercial footing like the Bluesound Node 2i is more a matter of supported services, features and personal preference than audio quality.

I thought the Node 2i had problems with its SPDIF output.

are there any streamers out there with USB audio output out there, other than the raspberry pi?

I mean it’s great and all but i really want Tidal connect lol.

 

[BeppeP]

Ok, interested what is the best Dac according to math measure, but which chip use? I guess not sonic feature to say this is the best so far, what’s about Dsd play and is it a preamp as well? Why some companies add one chip per channel? Sorry if I am strict but I jump from audiophile to this forum and there are two different ways of approaching what is the best. Here is based on math and people usually advertise Chinese gear as the best sound and balance for moneys, with all respect, but in Europe Chinese gears sounds crap

 

[Sukie]

Here is based on math and people usually advertise Chinese gear as the best sound and balance for moneys, with all respect, but in Europe Chinese gears sounds crap

Firstly DACs don't have a "sound". Not if they're competently engineered.

Secondly, how does the location of a person affect how something sounds? There are good Chinese products and not so good Chinese products just like there are good European products and not so good European products. I can assure you that my Topping D50s DAC does the job perfectly well here in the UK.

Might I respectfully suggest that you check your prejudice before making further posts.

 

[BeppeP]

Sorry was not about prejudice here, is clear that iphones are assembled and produce in China, however even if more and more producers manufacturers hi end product there the feeling of made on west side for me is still a premium thing and I am glad to pay premium price to support my community, Europe or US. When I go through products reviewed here i have a feeling of producers who try to get to the level we reached here in terms of design, materials and components but they simply look cheap with cheap components and copy of west design gears. So sorry if I am frankly but the extra mile is reached by west company, we developed industrial products since centuries now and the level of design has no rival in east side, you can see in everything, from audio to clothes to food. For me cheap is cheap and is ok, but when you talk about audiophile thing there is a mix of price, design and technology and they will never reach this

 

[BeppeP]

To follow I don’t want to go off topic with my personal view, I just wanted and sorry for that to express my impression about which products are reviewed here and sometimes I agree that other community make outstanding reviews of products who sound the same and cost 10 times more, but as I said you pay a price not only for the technology but for R&D mkt sales etc and even if looks crazy you honorate somehow the history of the company. If I buy a high end end Dac from an unknown company and if I resell there is no market, if I buy a respectful brand I can still get something back,easy. If I invest 1000 usd now for a Dac I don’t get anything back but investing 3000 for a big brand in three years I still get half, you cannot say is wrong. So to make it short what is the best Dac from a respectful producer who offer good customer service and warranty? Can someone answer this among the products reviewed here?

 

[raistlin65]

To follow I don’t want to go off topic with my personal view, I just wanted and sorry for that to express my impression about which products are reviewed here

Have you looked through the review databases to actually see what products have been reviewed here? If there is a product you want to be reviewed, talk to Amir. You can buy it and have it sent to him. There's where most of the reviews are coming from: people send the equipment to him.

If I invest 1000 usd now for a Dac I don’t get anything back but investing 3000 for a big brand in three years I still get half, you cannot say is wrong.

Unless there is some unusual feature you need, I think it's crazy to invest $1000 a DAC.

This is 2020. DACs are a mature technology. This $130 DAC will be audibly transparent:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-e30-dac-review.12119/

You can spend as much more money as you want, and you will not find a DAC that will produce higher fidelity which you can hear.

There are even dongles approaching this level of performance: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dizs-s8-usb-c-headphone-adapter-review.10823/

 

[somebodyelse]

I thought the Node 2i had problems with its SPDIF output.

are there any streamers out there with USB audio output out there, other than the raspberry pi?

I mean it’s great and all but i really want Tidal connect lol.

I don't remember seeing anything about SPDIF output problems with the Node 2i, but I haven't been paying that much attention to it so could easily have missed something. Do you have a reference? I remember reports from people using it via the SPDIF output, but I couldn't point to one if asked.

I assume you're excluding the other single board computer models, aiming at more of a finished product. Allo's USBridge Signature Player probably just squeezes over that bar. Then there's the Volumio Primo, several Rendu models from Sonore, Pro-Ject Streambox S2 Ultra, the old Squeezebox Touch. I assume there are more - I haven't been paying much attention as the Pi does everything I need.

 

[abdo123]

I don't remember seeing anything about SPDIF output problems with the Node 2i, but I haven't been paying that much attention to it so could easily have missed something. Do you have a reference? I remember reports from people using it via the SPDIF output, but I couldn't point to one if asked.

I assume you're excluding the other single board computer models, aiming at more of a finished product. Allo's USBridge Signature Player probably just squeezes over that bar. Then there's the Volumio Primo, several Rendu models from Sonore, Pro-Ject Streambox S2 Ultra, the old Squeezebox Touch. I assume there are more - I haven't been paying much attention as the Pi does everything I need.

You can read about it more in Amir’s review: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...surements-of-bluesound-node-2i-streamer.6631/

 

[somebodyelse]

Ok, interested what is the best Dac according to math measure, but which chip use? I guess not sonic feature to say this is the best so far, what’s about Dsd play and is it a preamp as well? Why some companies add one chip per channel?

The chip is less important than the implementation. Most (all?) of the top tier of chips can do DSD and volume control, but not all manufacturers choose to use the capability.

Using more than one chip per channel can be used to reduce noise. This is how the Okto DAC8 Stereo gets better SINAD than the DAC8 Pro - they're essentially the same DAC but the Stereo combines 4 channels for reduced noise. In most cases it's probably more to do with marketing than performance though - few of them perform better than the best single chip implementations.

 

[somebodyelse]

You can read about it more in Amir’s review: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...surements-of-bluesound-node-2i-streamer.6631/

You'll have to be more specific - the only issue I see is for the coax and toslink inputs.

 

[Sukie]

are there any streamers out there with USB audio output out there, other than the raspberry pi?

I mean it’s great and all but i really want Tidal connect lol.

Volumio have confirmed that they have made a request to Tidal for Tidal Connect and are awaiting a reply:

https://community.volumio.org/t/adding-tidal-connect/42022

This would then allow an RPi to be used with Tidal Connect.

Moode Audio will be less likely to implement Tidal Connect due to Tidal's dislike for open-source projects:

http://moodeaudio.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=3096

 

[threni]

Sorry was not about prejudice here, is clear that iphones are assembled and produce in China, however even if more and more producers manufacturers hi end product there the feeling of made on west side for me is still a premium thing and I am glad to pay premium price to support my community, Europe or US. When I go through products reviewed here i have a feeling of producers who try to get to the level we reached here in terms of design, materials and components but they simply look cheap with cheap components and copy of west design gears. So sorry if I am frankly but the extra mile is reached by west company, we developed industrial products since centuries now and the level of design has no rival in east side, you can see in everything, from audio to clothes to food. For me cheap is cheap and is ok, but when you talk about audiophile thing there is a mix of price, design and technology and they will never reach this

You seem to be suffering some sort of anti-chinese bias. Fortunately you can use science to prove you have a prejudice and do something about it if you so chose. Or continue to wallow in your own ignorance if you prefer.

You can see from the reviews here that Chinese kit - for example, the E30 DAC or L30 amp - measure and perform very well. So you can go with your feelings about "made on west side [sic]", or you can take the actual correct answer, it's up to you. If they copied "our" designs, which design? If we've got centuries of experience why are iPhones made in China and India? You sort of hint at that but then your English deteriorates to the point where it's not possible to understand what point you're making. Surely if you can make an iPhone in China you can make an amplifier, no? Or anything else? You've probably spent so long being brainwashed by brands and audiophile literature that you actually believe it. But it's not the case. Read the reviews here of whatever it is you want to buy, regardless of location, and stop telling yourself that there's something magical that happens when it's performed by someone in the west, because it's going to make you look a little foolish and might lead you to bad purchasing decisions.

 

[abdo123]

You'll have to be more specific - the only issue I see is for the coax and toslink inputs.

You’re right, I misunderstood the review. I thought all SPDIF (outputs and inputs) had an issue.

 

[abdo123]

Volumio have confirmed that they have made a request to Tidal for Tidal Connect and are awaiting a reply:

https://community.volumio.org/t/adding-tidal-connect/42022

This would then allow an RPi to be used with Tidal Connect.

Moode Audio will be less likely to implement Tidal Connect due to Tidal's dislike for open-source projects:

http://moodeaudio.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=3096

I really hope Tidal get down of their high horse and give Volumio the OK.

I really wish that BlueOS was something you could buy and install on any small board computer. It would be industry shaking.

 

[abdo123]

You seem to be suffering some sort of anti-chinese bias. Fortunately you can use science to prove you have a prejudice and do something about it if you so chose. Or continue to wallow in your own ignorance if you prefer.

You can see from the reviews here that Chinese kit - for example, the E30 DAC or L30 amp - measure and perform very well. So you can go with your feelings about "made on west side [sic]", or you can take the actual correct answer, it's up to you. If they copied "our" designs, which design? If we've got centuries of experience why are iPhones made in China and India? You sort of hint at that but then your English deteriorates to the point where it's not possible to understand what point you're making. Surely if you can make an iPhone in China you can make an amplifier, no? Or anything else? You've probably spent so long being brainwashed by brands and audiophile literature that you actually believe it. But it's not the case. Read the reviews here of whatever it is you want to buy, regardless of location, and stop telling yourself that there's something magical that happens when it's performed by someone in the west, because it's going to make you look a little foolish and might lead you to bad purchasing decisions.

I wouldn’t use the iPhone as an example as it is designed in the US.

 

[threni]

I wouldn’t use the iPhone as an example as it is assembled and designed in the US.

I don't think anyone believes it was designed by that popular Chinese company, Apple. But it is definitely built in China, by Foxconn (well, the ones which aren't built in India). I couldn't tell you what "assembled" meant. Taking them out of the containers when they turn up from China and putting them into cardboard boxes, maybe.

 

[abdo123]

I don't think anyone believes it was designed by that popular Chinese company, Apple. But it is definitely built in China, by Foxconn (well, the ones which aren't built in India). I couldn't tell you what "assembled" meant. Taking them out of the containers when they turn up from China and putting them into cardboard boxes, maybe.

Well i can get the best architect and civil engineer and they would build the best and most beautiful building in the world. It wouldn’t matter where the construction workers are from. That’s why I wouldn’t use the iPhone as an example.

 

[Thalis]

Volumio have confirmed that they have made a request to Tidal for Tidal Connect and are awaiting a reply:

https://community.volumio.org/t/adding-tidal-connect/42022

This would then allow an RPi to be used with Tidal Connect.

Moode Audio will be less likely to implement Tidal Connect due to Tidal's dislike for open-source projects:

http://moodeaudio.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=3096

I am moode user and I was having high hopes for Tidal Connect... oh well. At least Spotify Connect still works flawlessly with moode.