Bargain DAC Suggestions?

[rebbiputzmaker]

I'm convinced Mike Moffat sucks as an engineer.

One of the best digital engineers ever.

smh lol Do you like Casey Jones?

From the Schiit site: "Mike Moffat was the founder of Theta, Theta Digital, and Angstrom, and his audio history covers an impressive list of firsts, including the first standalone DAC, the Theta DSPre, the first use of digital signal processing and bit-perfect digital filter algorithms, the first DTS surround processor, and more."

 

[Sal1950]

Are these DACs just being built to measure, or are they for listening to music?

They should be measured first in the interest of supplying a transparent window to the source.
You don't build a bad measuring anything and then say "ya this is good".

 

[amirm]

I am keeping an open mind that these other Schiit products perform well. If they don't, then all the damning can begin.

BTW, I have an opportunity to measure the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC soon! Our cup runneth over with Schiit.....

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

I am keeping an open mind that these other Schiit products perform well. If they don't, then all the damning can begin.

BTW, I have an opportunity to measure the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC soon! Our cup runneth over with Schiit.....

 

[tim_j_thomas]

I am keeping an open mind that these other Schiit products perform well. If they don't, then all the damning can begin.

BTW, I have an opportunity to measure the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC soon! Our cup runneth over with Schiit.....

The latest update to the Yggdrasil?

 

[amirm]

The latest update to the Yggdrasil?

I don't know 'till I see it a week from now.

 

[sssn]

How I imagine Schiitboys will be when amirm drops the bombs

 

[Blumlein 88]

Are these DACs just being built to measure, or are they for listening to music?

Looks like you just joined the forum. Welcome.

The DACs are built for music. Measurements can tell us how well they accomplish this or whether they have issues.

In the case of some Schiit gear, like the Modi, it was found it lets lots of noise over USB to effect the output. Plenty report hearing mouse clicks and other noises bleeding thru. That is not conducive to listening to music. Measurements indicated this as well as people saying they experienced it.

That is not good design when less expensive gear outperforms it in immunity from USB noise, and in basic distortion, jitter, and noise floor parameters. Doesn't matter whose name is on the back as the designer. It isn't good performance.

If you haven't seen the thread, look at the Modi DAC review here under budget DACs. Then look at a $69 device exceed it handily. Then Amir has found some other units that work much better. Those that measure better will work better.

 

[Blumlein 88]

One of the best digital engineers ever.

smh lol Do you like Casey Jones?

From the Schiit site: "Mike Moffat was the founder of Theta, Theta Digital, and Angstrom, and his audio history covers an impressive list of firsts, including the first standalone DAC, the Theta DSPre, the first use of digital signal processing and bit-perfect digital filter algorithms, the first DTS surround processor, and more."

I know who Mike Moffat is. Owned a Theta DAC once. Had friends that owned nearly all Theta gear at one time or another.

All I have to judge Schiit gear on is what they make now. They have a few pieces of gear that have odd issues. Is it because Mike Moffat is such a great designer? Is it because he thinks those things aren't heard? Is it because he is working on budget gear now, and others do it better given those cost constraints?

 

[SpeedyRodent]

It might be worth mentioning the Schiit Yggdrasil has undergone several hardware revisions. Specifically the USB implementation has changed at least once or twice? I read they changed the analog stage recently. I imagine the measurements may vary depending on the hardware revision of the tested Yggdrasil.

Stereophile reviewed and measured one a few years ago. It was definitely entertaining to read.

Not a Schiit fanboy or hater. I've listened to plenty of Schiit products but never actually owned any of it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It might be worth mentioning the Schiit Yggdrasil has undergone several hardware revisions. Specifically the USB implementation has changed at least once or twice? I read they changed the analog stage recently. I imagine the measurements may vary depending on the hardware revision of the tested Yggdrasil.

Stereophile reviewed and measured one a few years ago. It was definitely entertaining to read.

Not a Schiit fanboy or hater. I've listened to plenty of Schiit products but never actually owned any of it.

Didn't they also issue a software update that fixed the glitch in the Yiggy output? You have to send it back as I recall. And they did this months before letting anyone know they did it. Silently doing the upgrade if you sent yours in for other upgrades (like the USB package). I can somewhat understand a small company didn't want all the Yiggy's in existence coming back at once.

Seems they added an offset so the glitching of 20 bit DACs didn't occur on zero transitions.

 

[Dismayed]

Are these DACs just being built to measure, or are they for listening to music?

I just sold a Bifrost DAC that would generate static whenever I saved a file. So, no, they aren't built for listening to music. Or at least I couldn't use it for listening when I was editing photo files. So I sold off my pile of Schiit - and at pretty decent prices because they are pretty good at marketing. So now I'm happy as a pig . . . no, that doesn't quite work.

 

[Sal1950]

I know who Mike Moffat is. Owned a Theta DAC once. Had friends that owned nearly all Theta gear at one time or another.
All I have to judge Schiit gear on is what they make now.

I find so much of what goes on in high end audio very confusing and it leaves me scratching my head. We've hit on things like this before but once again just today it kind of slapped me in the face once more. As I sat in the porcelain library reading, I came on the Sept 2017 Stereophile review of Dan D'Agostino Master Audio Systems Progression Mono amplifier. I could pick out many details of this review to highlight but I'll just relate what is detailed in the very beginning of the article. How is it that a designer/manufacturer of supposed stellar reputation like D D'A, deliver to the "premiere" audiofile publication, an amplifier so defective OTB? Not just in one area, the internal cable issue, but also the transformers in both? How does this happen with a $38,000 product? Where is the QC, did no one care enough to measure and listen to the first production run before releasing it to the public, let alone send out for reviewing. Seems like the more you spend in this "hobby" the less assured you can be that you'll get a product that is working to spec, or remains so for long. If you have the stomach for it, read the entire article along with Atkinsons full measurements. See how many other things you find that make you go HUH?

"Alas, when D'Agostino's longtime associate Bill McKiegan visited my home to install the first pair of Progression monoblocks manufactured in their initial, limited production run, technical problems intruded: First, a loose ribbon cable in one monoblock's chassis caused it to emit a loud noise. Although McKiegan easily reattached the cable—its new header and pin should prevent future problems—both monoblocks continued to emit an annoying hum that made listening a chore, and compromised all sound above the bass region. This second problem was traced to improper potting in the transformers, an error on the part of the transformer provider, and has since been addressed."
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...monoblock-power-amplifier#h0Js2bW3jd6fPeS7.99

 

[stunta]

I find so much of what goes on in high end audio very confusing and it leaves me scratching my head. We've hit on things like this before but once again just today it kind of slapped me in the face once more. As I sat in the porcelain library reading, I came on the Sept 2017 Stereophile review of Dan D'Agostino Master Audio Systems Progression Mono amplifier. I could pick out many details of this review to highlight but I'll just relate what is detailed in the very beginning of the article. How is it that a designer/manufacturer of supposed stellar reputation like D D'A, deliver to the "premiere" audiofile publication, an amplifier so defective OTB? Not just in one area, the internal cable issue, but also the transformers in both? How does this happen with a $38,000 product? Where is the QC, did no one care enough to measure and listen to the first production run before releasing it to the public, let alone send out for reviewing. Seems like the more you spend in this "hobby" the less assured you can be that you'll get a product that is working to spec, or remains so for long. If you have the stomach for it, read the entire article along with Atkinsons full measurements. See how many other things you find that make you go HUH?

"Alas, when D'Agostino's longtime associate Bill McKiegan visited my home to install the first pair of Progression monoblocks manufactured in their initial, limited production run, technical problems intruded: First, a loose ribbon cable in one monoblock's chassis caused it to emit a loud noise. Although McKiegan easily reattached the cable—its new header and pin should prevent future problems—both monoblocks continued to emit an annoying hum that made listening a chore, and compromised all sound above the bass region. This second problem was traced to improper potting in the transformers, an error on the part of the transformer provider, and has since been addressed."
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...monoblock-power-amplifier#h0Js2bW3jd6fPeS7.99

Good on Stereophile that they did not sweep this under the rug. I know of a reviewer who gets dealer pricing on products which is usually ~50% off of retail, reviews them and sells them for a nice profit. I'd hazard a guess that this is fairly common practice in this industry given the large number of glowing subjective reviews without any measurements.

 

[Dialectic]

I'm convinced Mike Moffat sucks as an engineer.

He may suck at engineering, but he's making a lot of money from all the Schiit DACs that Amir is buying to test.

 

[Dismayed]

He may suck at engineering, but he's making a lot of money from all the Schiit DACSs that Amir is buying to test.

I have one turd left - a Schiit headphone amp that will be listed on eBay soon. Time to wipe things clean.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I find so much of what goes on in high end audio very confusing and it leaves me scratching my head. We've hit on things like this before but once again just today it kind of slapped me in the face once more. As I sat in the porcelain library reading, I came on the Sept 2017 Stereophile review of Dan D'Agostino Master Audio Systems Progression Mono amplifier. I could pick out many details of this review to highlight but I'll just relate what is detailed in the very beginning of the article. How is it that a designer/manufacturer of supposed stellar reputation like D D'A, deliver to the "premiere" audiofile publication, an amplifier so defective OTB? Not just in one area, the internal cable issue, but also the transformers in both? How does this happen with a $38,000 product? Where is the QC, did no one care enough to measure and listen to the first production run before releasing it to the public, let alone send out for reviewing. Seems like the more you spend in this "hobby" the less assured you can be that you'll get a product that is working to spec, or remains so for long. If you have the stomach for it, read the entire article along with Atkinsons full measurements. See how many other things you find that make you go HUH?

"Alas, when D'Agostino's longtime associate Bill McKiegan visited my home to install the first pair of Progression monoblocks manufactured in their initial, limited production run, technical problems intruded: First, a loose ribbon cable in one monoblock's chassis caused it to emit a loud noise. Although McKiegan easily reattached the cable—its new header and pin should prevent future problems—both monoblocks continued to emit an annoying hum that made listening a chore, and compromised all sound above the bass region. This second problem was traced to improper potting in the transformers, an error on the part of the transformer provider, and has since been addressed."
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...monoblock-power-amplifier#h0Js2bW3jd6fPeS7.99

I read that review back around Christmas killing time. I had the same thoughts. It was almost like a limited production of one set for the Stereophile review and however many more get ordered once the review is published. And if they just make them and send them out for an important review with zero checking then there is no QC. You think a no-name customer is going to get better treatment. But hey, its shall we say enigmatic measured results were the same as the more expensive $55k/pr tested a few years earlier. So its well engineered.

 

[Dismayed]

I read that review back around Christmas killing time. I had the same thoughts. It was almost like a limited production of one set for the Stereophile review and however many more get ordered once the review is published. And if they just make them and send them out for an important review with zero checking then there is no QC. You think a no-name customer is going to get better treatment. But hey, its shall we say enigmatic measured results were the same as the more expensive $55k/pr tested a few years earlier. So its well engineered.

But what of the expansive sound stage? The palpable presence of the instruments? The air present around the instruments? Or the value of bragging rights that comes with throwing away large sums of money on poorly engineered audio jewelry ?

 

[tili]

But what of the expansive sound stage? The palpable presence of the instruments? The air present around the instruments? Or the value of bragging rights that comes with throwing away large sums of money on poorly engineered audio jewelry ?

How about planktons?

 

[Jimster480]

I actually was thinking that the NX4DSD might be a great budget unit since its only around $150 and it has everything you could need in a DAC / Amp.