Controlling the bass in complex music is a real issue in my room. Ironically there is not nearly enough bass for big movies. I have the music part dialed in but it is nowhere nearly adequate for movies.
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Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)
- Thread starter sweetchaos
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Our systems are pretty similar.
Denon X4500 w/Audyssey XT32
Buchardt S400 x3
Revel S16 x4
Focal 6" sealed outdoor speakers as heights/tops
Rythmik FV15HP2 x2
For me, Audyssey is a simple process. I run all the measurements and if I get the floor L/R and top L/R pairs to come out with the same distances left to right, I know I got my center point right with the mic. Using the app, I set my limit at 400 Hz for the front 3 and between 400-600 Hz for the rest of the speakers. I find the surrounds tend to need correction a little higher due to their proximity to the walls.
The subs get a distance tweak using REW to verify, crossovers set to 60 Hz (based on much testing in different rooms over the last few years, and because Denon doesn't give the option for 70 Hz) then sub levels adjusted using a set of musical reference tracks. This usually means the levels come up 1-3 notches. Back when I ran sealed subs, I had to crank them a lot more, like +6-8.
I then use a process I developed using Atmos white noise and REW RTA readings to level out the surrounds and tops with DEQ on at -20 MV. I always use DEQ, no exceptions.
My settings don't ever change unless I come across a movie with abnormally weak or strong LFE. For Bladerunner 2049 the subs get trimmed by -2, for example.
Other than that, this system is turn-key whenever I want to use it.
I'm trying to understand this. You are not getting enough bass for movies, and if you run the bass where you want it to be, the bass is too much for music?
Exactly. I find that the music 2.2 is very sensitive to too much Bass. That same setting with movies is extraordinarily weak. I think with music it is so sensitive that I can't even do a tilt I literally need to keep it at the bass calibration settings for multi eqx and then it's perfect and REW also shows me that I am right. For music. It's magical for music. It's terrible for home theater.
That's why I need two profiles it seems.
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Post some examples of your test tracks and I'll try them here.
Do you use dynamic EQ? The reference offsets could help you getting a balanced sound by setting them different for music and movie
Sure! I'm happy to but again I have the music dialed in perfectly in my mind.. but that same profile does not work for movies.
You're going to make me blush but here are my go-to tracks for music:
The magnificent seven by the clash, cousin Dupree and babylon's sister by steely Dan, after midnight at Kean college by Jerry Garcia, the insound from way out by Beastie boys, magnetic lies my Malia, fading sun by Terje Isungset, flight of the cosmic hippo by Bela fleck, Arabia by Jerry Garcia, solar sailor from the Tron soundtrack, Running by Norah Jones, secret agent Man by devo, the torture never stops by Frank Zappa, and one of the most difficult songs in a weird way is slippery people by talking heads... There are sounds that are hard to control in that song. I don't know just a glimpse.
You're going to make me blush but here are my go-to tracks for music:
The magnificent seven by the clash, cousin Dupree and babylon's sister by steely Dan, after midnight at Kean college by Jerry Garcia, the insound from way out by Beastie boys, magnetic lies my Malia, fading sun by Terje Isungset, flight of the cosmic hippo by Bela fleck, Arabia by Jerry Garcia, solar sailor from the Tron soundtrack, Running by Norah Jones, secret agent Man by devo, the torture never stops by Frank Zappa, and one of the most difficult songs in a weird way is slippery people by talking heads... There are sounds that are hard to control in that song. I don't know just a glimpse.
I've had a terrible time with dynamic EQ to be honest. Bloated sound is my general complaint.
So I decided to set a home theater profile and try to play The matrix again today. I added a -0.6 tilt and +1 bass shelf and then the matrix was acceptable but nowhere near where I had it 20 years ago.
In the classic scene when Neo and Trinity walk into the military building past the metal detectors and they get in the shootout and do somersaults and twirl and blow up the lobby of the building... You have to hear that deep soundtrack of music playing through... You need the highs of all the bullets and shells you need the explosions and you need that musical bass soundtrack. That is a go-to measurement for me. It is locked into my brain. I played that movie last night with my music setting and it was absolutely embarrassing. I juice it up today and it was way more enjoyable but not the way I remember it in any stretch the imagination... Still so weak even with the big tilt and the bass boost. I don't understand exactly but I guess that's why I'm on this journey.
In the classic scene when Neo and Trinity walk into the military building past the metal detectors and they get in the shootout and do somersaults and twirl and blow up the lobby of the building... You have to hear that deep soundtrack of music playing through... You need the highs of all the bullets and shells you need the explosions and you need that musical bass soundtrack. That is a go-to measurement for me. It is locked into my brain. I played that movie last night with my music setting and it was absolutely embarrassing. I juice it up today and it was way more enjoyable but not the way I remember it in any stretch the imagination... Still so weak even with the big tilt and the bass boost. I don't understand exactly but I guess that's why I'm on this journey.
My experience is quite different. May be because you dialed everything in while dynamic EQ is disabled and switching it on will over compensate?
I did my dial in on music with dynEQ ref set to -15dB. In this way movies sound good with dynEQ set to 0dB ref level
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I've never had bloated sound with Dynamic EQ. I think the only way that could happen is if I tried running a custom curve on top of it. You generally only need one or the other. If you dial in your sub levels with DEQ on during some nice bassy reference tracks and movies, it will always be on point.
Honestly, I think your problem is your custom curve, or you need vented subs to get the satisfying movie experience that you're after. I know that's what cured it for me. I went 2xF12 to 2xG22 to 2xFV15HP2 and that is when I stopped searching. Not only do they have the output, but they also have the tactility that the G22's were lacking and that makes a huge difference to the experience.
I'll have a listen to some of your tracks to see if they sound right on my system.
I assume you have your room modes and dips sorted?
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Not really sure what tool are you using to "manage" Audy. The built in version of Audy does not allow much flexibility. $20 Android/iOS app (built by D&M) is the starting point and then $200 MultiEQ-X Windows app (built by Audy) is the next step. On 6700H I remember using 2 presets using either of the apps (from memory, but pretty sure though), so would be surprised in the 8500H does not have them. After doing calibration with app, at the end it is asking if I want to upload to Preset 1 or 2.
Audy is known to reduce the bass output after calibration, so many increase bass level either at the sub/s or AVR. In addition, perhaps you need the curve to enhance the bass to your liking. All speakers should be set as small, and probably should choose 80hz crossover as a starting point, or higher for the speakers where Audy recommended a higher crossover. Bass management should be set to LFE and LFP to 120hz.
Positioning of the subs should also be taken into account both in terms of frequency response and SPL. Subs in wrong places might not produce smooth response and subs too far away might not hit the SPL you desire. Also, for optimal results, your subs should measure not more than 6m distance (not physical distance though) otherwise timing might be off. Sometimes engaging DSP at sub level pushes subs beyond this limit. At calibration people usually set the sub volume so that it is a bit above the Audy "green" line, so that calibration ends up with negative trim. Negative trim can be up to -11.5dB as if you hit -12dB that is the max so you can not be sure if you are or not over the line.
Hope you will be able to tune in your 8500H. It is a great AVR and should be able to give you excellent results in all aspects.
The room correction today is way better then 20 years ago, the best programs today can also correct phase.
Dirac can do that and A1 Evo also, i doubt MultiEQ X can.
I use Evo v3 it sounds great with music and movies.
I use the $200 windows app and REW to help me square up the subwoofer volume. X8500h has just one preset unfortunately. I think the solution is simply to have two different configuration files. One for HT and one for music. A little bit of a pain but not terrible only takes 90 seconds to load a new config file.
There are a number of things here to think about and try. Thank you. With the F226be I have found that I don't need to use a house curve at all for music. I will play with Dynamic EQ again for movies. Can't stand it for music.
Do you at least get flat and reference options for your one preset (which you really should as that was a long time Audy feature)? With MultiEQ-X app you could set up one for music and the other one for movies. They can be completely different in all aspects - but they need to share the same configuration layout (number of speakers and placement). Changing them would be as easy as push of a button on the phone interface.
I use 2 presets with two curves for each on AV-10 and change based on the content. If you calibrate your system for Matrix, it unfortunately does not mean it will be similarly good for all material. While this might not be popular view, I don't think there is a reference calibration for movies given the variety of the content.
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When you play a movie soundtrack, does it sound the same as the movie? This test would be telling.
Something like Hans Zimmer's "2049" or "Bladerunner", or Edge of Tomorrow's "Combat Training" should have plenty of deep bass.
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Before you go off futzing with Audyssey ...are you talking about downmixing the surround soundtrack of The Matrix to 2.2, and comparing that to a 2 channel music recording played over 2.2? Or is there a dedicated 2 channel mix for the movie?
As for your system 30 years ago sounding so much better...your memories are no doubt highly colored by the passage of time, not to mention different room acoustics. Unless that old system in the very same room you're listening in now?
(Leaving aside that diagnosing problems like these without a good set of in-room measurements from the MLP, can quickly become a kind of a down-the-rabbit-hole adventure)
As for your system 30 years ago sounding so much better...your memories are no doubt highly colored by the passage of time, not to mention different room acoustics. Unless that old system in the very same room you're listening in now?
(Leaving aside that diagnosing problems like these without a good set of in-room measurements from the MLP, can quickly become a kind of a down-the-rabbit-hole adventure)
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What he's talking about, I think, is that for his musical preferences, he doesn't like a lot of bass*. But that setup doesn't work well for movies.
*I have yet to give those tracks a listen. Working on the car suspension today...
If the movie soundtrack has LFE content, it will at times naturally have more deep bass than almost any 2 channel music release.
I'm still not clear on what Acerun is comparing.
One of his tracks is from Two Against Nature. The 5.1 DVDA of that has prominent LFE content. That might be a more proper comparison to the video soundtrack of The Matrix.
I'm still not clear on what Acerun is comparing.
One of his tracks is from Two Against Nature. The 5.1 DVDA of that has prominent LFE content. That might be a more proper comparison to the video soundtrack of The Matrix.