Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)

[EJ3]

Been in the USA for a bit over six decades now (my arrival coincided with my first breath). I knew IMHO; but never would have guessed what IMO and IME was supposed to mean either.

I was concieved in the USA, born in Salzburg, Austria, back in the USA before I was 3 months old. About 6.7 decades ago (I did not notice the change at the time, so I wasn't tricked). But I spent 2001-2018 on Islands in the Indian Ocean, the Western Pacific (close to the equator, from 7 degrees South to 15 degrees North and all around the "Sandbox Zone" & the "Ring of Fire Zone".
I, too, knew IMHO and guessed correctly at the other 2. But I could have just as easily been wrong.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

I was concieved in the USA, born in Salzburg, Austria, back in the USA before I was 3 months old. About 6.7 decades ago (I did not notice the change at the time, so I wasn't tricked). But I spent 2001-2018 on Islands in the Indian Ocean, the Western Pacific (close to the equator, from 7 degrees South to 15 degrees North and all around the "Sandbox Zone" & the "Ring of Fire Zone".
I, too, knew IMHO and guessed correctly at the other 2. But I could have just as easily been wrong.

I suspect it was your equatorial island time that gave the added insight to figure it out... just being USA-based as my case could be too limiting.

 

[EJ3]

I suspect it was your equatorial island time that gave the added insight to figure it out... just being USA-based as my case could be too limiting.

Could be.
At any rate, it was fun, interesting & that is where I met the women that became my wife (I have seen that move become a constantly on going train wreck, but in my case, it was a good move for my life).

 

[nathan]

Independent Subwoofers adjustments. so far it seems the subs are configured as one .. One has to resort to MSO to properly integrate multiple subwoofers. That makes for a unwieldy set-up: AVR s(one sub) out to o miniDSP 2x4 HD, then each subwoofer connected to one output of the mniDSP 2x4. Configuring this is not straightforward: I need to measure the subs with REW, And if you want to linearize for 4 subs and 4 seating positions, you run into 16 measurements> That in turn increase the probability of mistakes, thus the time it takes to measure/configure .

Was this ever resolved? Seems like it would be "simple" to allow MultEQ-X to expose each subwoofer's distance/delay, gain, and EQ settings to the user.

 

[GalZohar]

Was this ever resolved? Seems like it would be "simple" to allow MultEQ-X to expose each subwoofer's distance/delay, gain, and EQ settings to the user.

That would be insufficient. They would need to let you do that before they measure the combined response of the subwoofers in order to apply filters. And you still will not have infividual speaker filters (unless you apply them directly to your subwoofer's internal dsp). A trick you might be able to use is to offset the gain/delay on each sub internal dsp to trick audyssey into picking desired values, then undoing those settings before audyssey measures the combined response. And again individual MSO filters for seat to seat variation reduction can be applied to the internal subwoofer dsp pre-calibration.

 

[nathan]

That would be insufficient. They would need to let you do that before they measure the combined response of the subwoofers in order to apply filters. And you still will not have infividual speaker filters (unless you apply them directly to your subwoofer's internal dsp). A trick you might be able to use is to offset the gain/delay on each sub internal dsp to trick audyssey into picking desired values, then undoing those settings before audyssey measures the combined response.

Fair enough. Yes, that makes sense unless they are doing some multiple passes for each sub measured from different locations, and then run a calculation, and then apply that valuation/manually adjust it, and THEN measure the combined response and choose an overall EQ--then doing this manually, externally, with a miniDSP before rung AudysseyMX, seems necessary.

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But this following statement is interesting. Are you saying one can run REW for creating filters in MSO, upload those into AudysseyMX (instead of a miniDSP) and then run MultQX on top of that single virtual subwoofer that one created with the MSO filters?

And again individual MSO filters for seat to seat variation reduction can be applied to the internal subwoofer dsp pre-calibration response.

 

[GalZohar]

Fair enough. Yes, that makes sense unless they are doing some multiple passes for each sub measured from different locations, and then run a calculation, and then apply that valuation/manually adjust it, and THEN measure the combined response and choose an overall EQ--then doing this manually, externally, with a miniDSP before rung AudysseyMX, seems necessary.

---

But this following statement is interesting. Are you saying one can run REW for creating filters in MSO, upload those into AudysseyMX (instead of a miniDSP) and then run MultQX on top of that single virtual subwoofer that one created with the MSO filters?

No, I was suggesting, if you have internal dsp in your sub with some peq delay and level:
1. Run mso in "seat to seat variation" mode.
2. Trick audyssey to set distance and level you want by messing with the internal subwoofer delays/levels and then resetting the internal subwoofer distance/delay to get desired mso recommended levels and delay in audyssey.
3. Apply PEQ from MSO to each sub.
4. Continue Audyssey calibration and let it eq both.

Pretty theoretical but worth a try if you want MSO without a minidsp.

 

[tengiz]

Good to see interest in using MSO interoperating with MultEQ-X!

I initially thought this would be relatively straightforward, at least for AVRs with 2/4 subwoofer outputs:

1. Run the MultEQ-X workflow. Let the chips fall where they may for SWs and upload the correction to the AVR.
2. Take the necessary measurements for MSO - following the standard workflow for subwoofer-to-main integration.
3. Run the MSO optimization using a filter configuration that matches the MultEQ-X's ]custom/user biquad toolkit.
4. Apply the MSO filters in MultEQ-X (and adjust subwoofer gains and delays if you allowed it).

This would eliminate the need for MiniDSP or something like this, and would still allow further refinement if the SWs have some onboard DSP capabilities.

However, for this to work properly, MultEQ-X's implementation of user filters needs to be phase-accurate. Initially, it wasn't clear whether that was the case. The documentation didn’t explicitly confirm or deny it - and it still doesn’t as far as know.

I wonder if anyone has any relevant information.

Thank you!

 

[nathan]

No, I was suggesting, if you have internal dsp in your sub with some peq delay and level:
1. Run mso in "seat to seat variation" mode.
2. Trick audyssey to set distance and level you want by messing with the internal subwoofer delays/levels and then resetting the internal subwoofer distance/delay to get desired mso recommended levels and delay in audyssey.
3. Apply PEQ from MSO to each sub.
4. Continue Audyssey calibration and let it eq both.

Pretty theoretical but worth a try if you want MSO without a minidsp.

Interesting idea. But I guess the answer to my question is that while the MultQX software is pretty cool, it doesn't lend itself to handling multiple subwoofers any better than the regular Audyssey system built into the AVR.

Guess I should be looking at an AVR that has Dirac's bass control software option.

 

[tengiz]

But I guess the answer to my question is that while the MultQX software is pretty cool, it doesn't lend itself to handling multiple subwoofers any better than the regular Audyssey system built into the AVR.

If you mean this question:

Was this ever resolved? Seems like it would be "simple" to allow MultEQ-X to expose each subwoofer's distance/delay, gain, and EQ settings to the user.

The answer is yes - subwoofer adjustments are handled separately, as long as you're using a sub configuration on the AVR that allows it. MultEQ-X also offers more precise control over gain and distance compared to the AVR itself. Plus, of course, it supports custom filters, including biquads, for each subwoofer individually.

It also has a major advantage - at least for me - in providing a much better workflow than the AVR interface or even the iOS app.

 

[KenMasters]

MultEQ-X also offers more precise control over gain and distance compared to the AVR itself. Plus, of course, it supports custom filters, including biquads, for each subwoofer individually.

MQX doesn't allow you to apply filters to the subs individually, only as a group.

Still, I use MSO in conjunction with MQX. My subs offer PEQ, I run MSO to derive the individual sub filters, after those are applied, I do a manual global EQ of the subs through MQX.

 

[tengiz]

MQX doesn't allow you to apply filters to the subs individually, only as a group.

Yes, just checked - no separate filters for subs. Bummer. Somehow I remembered it differently. Well, at leasts trim/distance can be set separately.

Do you know if the MQX user biquads are phase accurate? Because if they are, then at least MSO can optimize trim/delay for each sub and the rest globally.

Edit:

Well, actually - at least the Import seems to allow separate filters for subs:

 

[KenMasters]

Do you know if the MQX user biquads are phase accurate? Because if they are, then at least MSO can optimize trim/delay for each sub and the rest globally.

I don't know, perhaps not, as the predicted response from MSO's global EQ doesn't align with the practical result in my setup.

What works for me is to run MSO's "As flat as possible at all listening positions" optimization without the shared input filters. After entering in the individual filters (which do align well with the predicted result) I EQ globally through MQX.

Well, actually - at least the Import seems to allow separate filters for subs

Thanks, I wasn't aware of this!

 

[FrantzM]

Was this ever resolved? Seems like it would be "simple" to allow MultEQ-X to expose each subwoofer's distance/delay, gain, and EQ settings to the user.

Revisiting the post, MSO for multiple subwoofers has worked for me for several, now, years. Yes, it is a bit clunky but it works and well.
[Multiple Subs]----->[mini-DSP 2x4 HD]---->[AVR-X3400]
Mono Bass under 80Hz.

I don't know how well Audyssey MultiEQ-X works with more than 2 subwoofers. Or if the results are better (I doubt it) than MSO.

Best.

 

[nathan]

I don't know, perhaps not, as the predicted response from MSO's global EQ doesn't align with the practical result in my setup.

What works for me is to run MSO's "As flat as possible at all listening positions" optimization without the shared input filters. After entering in the individual filters (which do align well with the predicted result) I EQ globally through MQX.



Thanks, I wasn't aware of this!

Yeah, the ability to proceed without adding a miniDSP2x4HD is what I was seeking. My subs only have a SINGLE PEQ each (https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15HP_features.html#peq) so I would only be able to solve the most egregious peak on each one (as determined by MSO).

Yes, just checked - no separate filters for subs. Bummer. Somehow I remembered it differently. Well, at leasts trim/distance can be set separately.

Do you know if the MQX user biquads are phase accurate? Because if they are, then at least MSO can optimize trim/delay for each sub and the rest globally.

Edit:

Well, actually - at least the Import seems to allow separate filters for subs:

View attachment 466633

That's interesting! Presumably I could import the filters recommended by MSO? Would I then be able to run MultEQX treating the multiple subs as a single sub (with those individual filters in place) to EQ the whole system? I think the answer is "no" but I naively hold out hope I am wrong!

 

[tengiz]

That's interesting! Presumably I could import the filters recommended by MSO? Would I then be able to run MultEQX treating the multiple subs as a single sub (with those individual filters in place) to EQ the whole system? I think the answer is "no" but I naively hold out hope I am wrong!

Yes, you can - assuming you configure the subs the right way. For example, Denon receivers have a “Directional” mode, but that won’t do what you want - it just ties the subs to the left and right channels, which defeats the purpose.

I haven’t tried MSO filter implementation in MultEQ-X myself yet, though, because I’m still not sure whether the user filter import preserves just the magnitude or also the phase. That part really matters for MSO filters to actually work their magic. I’ll start playing around with it soon - it should be pretty easy to verify.

 

[GalZohar]

You can't apply an MSO filter to the MultEQ-X curve as the target curve is for the summed response of the 2 subwoofers. Also, the phase may be affected differently than what MSO expects, which may affect the result. Applying "filters" to the MultEQ-X curve doesn't actually apply filters directly, but rather changes the target curve, and Audyssey will generate filters accordingly, but not necessarily the ones you would expect/want depending on what you're trying to actually do...

If you want MSO with Audyssey then you need DSP on the subwoofers themselves or a minidsp.

 

[tengiz]

You can't apply an MSO filter to the MultEQ-X curve as the target curve is for the summed response of the 2 subwoofers.

I have just imported different EQ curves to MultEQ-X to 2 subwoofers. It looks like it did it without summing the responses. See the pictures - they clearly show that subs correctly reflected what I put in the EQ files. Or did you mean something else, perhaps? It doesn't indicate whether this is just magnitude response, of course.

SWL:
Fc 60.00 Hz Gain 6.00 dB Q 4.000

SWR:
Fc 40.00 Hz Gain -6.00 dB Q 4.000

 

[GalZohar]

If you set your subwoofers to left/right subwoofer, everything you've done in MSO is pointless, as all right channel bass will only play on the right subwoofer, and all left channel bass will play on the left subwoofer. The results will most likely be catastrophic and definitely not what MSO intended.

 

[tengiz]

If you set your subwoofers to left/right subwoofer, everything you've done in MSO is pointless, as all right channel bass will only play on the right subwoofer, and all left channel bass will play on the left subwoofer. The results will most likely be catastrophic and definitely not what MSO intended.

Isn't the typical MSO workflow based on energizing the system with an L+R summed signal? That would suggest it’s fundamentally designed around mono bass content. So if a recording actually contains stereo bass, the resulting interference patterns between the mains and subs near the crossover could be quite different - potentially even destructive - since MSO wouldn’t have accounted for that scenario.

Which means that an L/R subwoofer configuration with mono bass content is exactly what MSO is optimized for anyway.

Unless I’m missing something here, of course.