Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)

[EJ3]

Before you go off futzing with Audyssey ...are you talking about downmixing the surround soundtrack of The Matrix to 2.2, and comparing that to a 2 channel music recording played over 2.2? Or is there a dedicated 2 channel mix for the movie?

As for your system 30 years ago sounding so much better...your memories are no doubt highly colored by the passage of time, not to mention different room acoustics. Unless that old system in the very same room you're listening in now?

(Leaving aside that diagnosing problems like these without a good set of in-room measurements from the MLP, can quickly become a kind of a down-the-rabbit-hole adventure)

And, perhaps an audio frequency hearing test might be in order: there is a high probability that the level of sensitivity (or not) to certain frequencies have changed.

 

[Acerun]

What he's talking about, I think, is that for his musical preferences, he doesn't like a lot of bass*. But that setup doesn't work well for movies.

*I have yet to give those tracks a listen. Working on the car suspension today...

Oh I like a lot of bass, but I like the bass under control where the basa notes are well defined and with my two sealed Rythmik 15" subs plus room gain I have it in spades. But that same perfect deep bass for music that doesn't translate to action movies in 5.2. well to clarify, the bass doesn't work the way I want it to. Maybe I do need ported subs to get there but I don't really want to give up the purity of the sealed subs that go down under 20 in complete control of the notes. Maybe that's just the trade-off.

 

[Acerun]

This is my Music Only REW measurement

 

[EJ3]

This is my Music Only REW measurement

And the 5.2 measurement?

 

[Acerun]

And the 5.2 measurement?

Oh I don't know how to measure that properly. This gets both subwoofers and the left and both subwoofers and the right. As well as the left right and subwoofers alone.

 

[EJ3]

Oh I don't know how to measure that properly. This gets both subwoofers and the left and both subwoofers and the right. As well as the left right and subwoofers alone.

Not having had 5.2 since the early 1990's (I went back to 2.2 stereo around the mid 1990's), I must say that I do not know how to measure it properly , either.

 

[Acerun]

By the way thank you all for your input and trying to figure this out with me. I just watched dune part 2 tonight and it successfully rattled my cage... So much so that I had to tone it down a little bit. It's possible that the matrix was mixed so long ago that it doesn't translate to modern systems as well.. not sure. I probably had an open ported subwoofer 20 yrs ago as well. I've got movies on a -0.5 tilt and I'll keep experimenting.. maybe even play around with putting everything back to the music setting and using dynamic eq... Got a few things to try but worst case scenario uploading two different configuration files isn't awful.

 

[EJ3]

By the way thank you all for your input and trying to figure this out with me. I just watched dune part 2 tonight and it successfully rattled my cage... So much so that I had to tone it down a little bit. It's possible that the matrix was mixed so long ago that it doesn't translate to modern systems as well.. not sure. I probably had an open ported subwoofer 20 yrs ago as well. I've got movies on a -0.5 tilt and I'll keep experimenting.. maybe even play around with putting everything back to the music setting and using dynamic eq... Got a few things to try but worst case scenario uploading two different configuration files isn't awful.

Ported woofer here (and always, since the mid 70's, will be).
The pair that I have at the moment are 2 of the larger (black) floor firing (my preference, for whatever reason) Radio Shack cabs, tuned to 29 Hz. Years & years ago (while I was in Saipan) I replaced the original woofers with a pair of Pioneer Automotive 12 inch dual 4 OHM voice coil competition 12" subs that have a rated FR of 20 Hz-80 Hz (while I have the paperwork in my files, I do not have access to the rest of the specs at the moment). I paired them with a NAD 2200 that Amir tested a long time ago, wiring the the dual voice coil circuit so that each woofer presents a 4 OHM load.
I have them about 6 inches from the back wall & about 18 inches from the side walls (the floors are hardwood & there is a couch, a love seat, triple moderate visibility [together they still let some diffused light in as the sun is going down]) curtains on the bay window.
The room is 15' L X 7' H X 13' W with to openings (no doors, open floor plan) toward the middle of the house, one is 3'8" W X 7' H, the other is 3'4" W X 6'8" H.
I am running one bridged mono NAD 2200 one each of my pair of Dahlquist M-905 speakers (having been tested to a FR 26 Hz-20 KHz +-2DB)
Now to the amount of power I can apply to these subs (actually to the system since I run 2 NAD 2200 amps bridged mono for the mains ([8 OHM mode]) and one NAD 2200 amp in stereo (4 OHMs) for the subs.
My High Cut filter is at 60HZ Low Cut filter is at 80 HZ.
So far: BASS (no matter what input it is coming from) can be adjusted to be "adequate" (or to be more impressive [to unknowing guests] "much more than necessary")
I only run the NAD 2200's using the LAB INPUTS (whether running bridged mono or not) :

NAD 2200 Vintage Amplifier Review​

Wow, we have one kilowatt of power coming out of this amp in short duration!

I was surprised that the frequency response was not flat but was relieved to see later in the thread that this is due to insertion of low and high pass filters. So here is the frequency response with Lab input that doesn't have such a filter:

Response now (in green) as it should be, ruler flat to below 10 Hz, and well extending past the 40 kHz limit of this measurement.

I figured the filters may be adding some noise/distortion so re-ran the dashboard again:

Distortion doesn't change but if you look at the noise floor at 20 Hz, it is down by some 10 dB. That improves SINAD a couple of dBs, making the amplifier stand out even more!

Zoomed:

And signal to noise ratio:

Conclusions
Nice to see innovation like this from equipment that is over 30 years old! Shame on manufacturers that produce amplifiers for much less power, more distortion and higher prices these days. No, you don't get a fancy case here and sheet metal is strictly budget category. But you are not going to sit on the amp. The guts are where it matters and NAD 2200 delivers.

NOTE: the output relay on stock 2200 gets corroded and fails over time. There are videos and DIY threads on how to upgrade the relay there to fix the problem. The unit tested here has that fix. Other than that, there are not reports of many other reliability issues even though NAD products are often said to be less reliable than other brands.

Overall, I am happy to recommend the NAD 2200. I almost gave it the highest honors but given the upgraded nature of the test unit, and the fact that used amps may have issues, I avoided that. But you could have easily pushed me to give it the golfing panther.

 

[Chromatischism]

Oh I like a lot of bass, but I like the bass under control where the basa notes are well defined and with my two sealed Rythmik 15" subs plus room gain I have it in spades. But that same perfect deep bass for music that doesn't translate to action movies in 5.2. well to clarify, the bass doesn't work the way I want it to. Maybe I do need ported subs to get there but I don't really want to give up the purity of the sealed subs that go down under 20 in complete control of the notes. Maybe that's just the trade-off.

I spent a considerable amount of time (a few years) thinking that, all the while trying these different sealed subs, researching, and reading from others who took a similar journey. When I wasn't getting satisfaction, I threw a Hail Mary and got the FV15HP2's.

It's not that I wasn't happy with sound quality or output under normal circumstances. I wanted something that could do 6dB over what I normally needed and therefore with the port assist, hit harder and achieve the LFE moments I was after with much less strain. Woofer excursion and distortion are lower. All the while not giving up much, if any, sound quality. I'm convinced the only difference with sealed subs is the psychoacoustic effect of perceiving less of the really low bass which gives the perception of overall "tight" bass. But the trade-off you get for saving floor space is more strain at the low end as the subs hit their limits. I find getting the balance right for music and movies a lot easier now since the low end is just "there" and all I have to do is get my sub integration right and not think about house curves, at least not in the small rooms I work with that have loads of reinforcement. Now the big LFE scenes hit harder and they do so effortlessly, while my music sounds the same, or slightly better. I would say my music improved by 10% while movies improved 50%.

I am not saying you need to rush to replace your subs. What you have is great. And especially because you should be able to get music and movies sounding amazing with only one set of settings. I always did.

 

[Oddball]

If EQ and bass management are sorted and you reached max SPL levels that are still not good enough for you, could buy more subs or reposition existing ones closer to MLP. For every meter you will gain some 3-4dB. Near-field subs hit harder and even though your frequency response might suffer, that might be a fair trade off to avoid additional subs.

 

[Chromatischism]

This is my Music Only REW measurement

I see a lack of output in the critical 20-40 Hz range. Shoot for something like a 6 dB slope from 100 Hz on down to the 20-30 Hz range, where it crests and starts to reduce below that. Without that, the impact of LFE in movies and also the weight of music will be muted.

My system peaks between 20-30 Hz and is -6 dB at 11.5 Hz with the vented subs and I think it's perfection for all content. As long as your crossover is 80 Hz or below (I choose 60, would probably prefer 70) your system will retain clarity in the 100-200 Hz area and avoid bloat.

Otherwise it looks nice and it's good to see you have room issues sorted.

 

[Chromatischism]

Not having had 5.2 since the early 1990's (I went back to 2.2 stereo around the mid 1990's), I must say that I do not know how to measure it properly , either.

By 5.2 he means 5.1 but with 2 subs. It's no different than measuring any bass managed system.

 

[Acerun]

I spent a considerable amount of time (a few years) thinking that, all the while trying these different sealed subs, researching, and reading from others who took a similar journey. When I wasn't getting satisfaction, I threw a Hail Mary and got the FV15HP2's.

It's not that I wasn't happy with sound quality or output under normal circumstances. I wanted something that could do 6dB over what I normally needed and therefore with the port assist, hit harder and achieve the LFE moments I was after with much less strain. Woofer excursion and distortion are lower. All the while not giving up much, if any, sound quality. I'm convinced the only difference with sealed subs is the psychoacoustic effect of perceiving less of the really low bass which gives the perception of overall "tight" bass. But the trade-off you get for saving floor space is more strain at the low end as the subs hit their limits. I find getting the balance right for music and movies a lot easier now since the low end is just "there" and all I have to do is get my sub integration right and not think about house curves, at least not in the small rooms I work with that have loads of reinforcement. Now the big LFE scenes hit harder and they do so effortlessly, while my music sounds the same, or slightly better. I would say my music improved by 10% while movies improved 50%.

I am not saying you need to rush to replace your subs. What you have is great. And especially because you should be able to get music and movies sounding amazing with only one set of settings. I always did.

I appreciate you sharing your process. What I showed in REW was my music settings and for my room and room gain and real life perception of what is enough and what is too much bass for music after months of testing and tweaking. Ironically, or not so ironically given the quality of the F226Be, a simply flat - no curve, no target adjustment over the initial MultiEQ-X calculation at all (besides disabling cut off and auto-leveling, and adding headroom). As I mentioned, for movies, I'm now playing with a -0.5 tilt which is getting me there. Other things I will try again are Dynamic EQ and I also realized that my subs have Extension Filters, Damping and Frequency. I realize that I have both subs set for the recommended music setting of High damping and 12 frequency. The Damping settings are High, Mid, Low and the Frequency settings are 12, 14 and 18. I suppose that if I want the biggest LFE response it would be Low Damping and 18 Frequency. Now what that will do to my music I don't know, but can find out. My subs are the 1000-watt Hypex version. Also, I'm crossing at 100. I've tried 60, 80 and 100 and 100 sounds most natural to me in my room.

 

[Acerun]

Short note. I played around with my flat setting but using Dynamic EQ set to 15. I also adjusted the Rythmik subs to Low Damping and 18 frequency. That sounded pretty good for the lobby scene which is a brilliant test scene because so much is going on. You have to hear the high pitches of the shells and guns hitting the floor, plus the explosions and collapsing plaster, all the same time hearing the clearly defined and fantastic bassline pulsing through that entire sequence. I find that I can only take in so much focused listening in a sitting, so will keep experimenting over some time. P.S. I also realized that I was cutting off the subs at 20. I changed that to 10 and it resulted in about a 2db increase across the board.

 

[Acerun]

I see a lack of output in the critical 20-40 Hz range. Shoot for a 3 to 6 dB slope from 100 Hz on down to the 20-30 Hz range, where it crests and starts to reduce below that. Without that, the impact of LFE in movies and also the weight of music will be muted.

My system peaks between 20-30 Hz and is -6 dB at 11.5 Hz with the vented subs and I think it's perfection for all content. As long as your crossover is 80 Hz or below (I choose 60, would probably prefer 70) your system will retain clarity in the 100-200 Hz area and avoid bloat.

Otherwise it looks nice and it's good to see you have room issues sorted.

Ay yai yai. And how are you getting that slope? I think you mean a negative slope up. Do you have the $200 app? How are you using peq to get there?

 

[Chromatischism]

I also realized that my subs have Extension Filters, Damping and Frequency. I realize that I have both subs set for the recommended music setting of High damping and 12 frequency.

Stick with this IMO & IME. It gets me the tightest and most tactile bass with amazing extension. It also helps prevent bloated sounding bass.

Ay yai yai. And how are you getting that slope? I think you mean a negative slope up. Do you have the $200 app? How are you using peq to get there?

Just the $20 app to facilitate the calibration and implement the speaker filter cutoffs. No PEQ, just DEQ, which implements a variable slope with SPL. Combined with my front/back room placement, that is the result. DEQ is controversial for some, but when used properly, I find it indispensable. I don't recommend using it with brighter speakers, though. They need to be pretty neutral/tame unless you have a way to negate the high-frequency effect. It's fine on my speakers.

 

[Acerun]

Stick with this IMO & IME. It gets me the tightest and most tactile bass with amazing extension. It also helps prevent bloated sounding bass.


Just the $20 app to facilitate the calibration and implement the speaker filter cutoffs. No PEQ, just DEQ, which implements a variable slope with SPL. Combined with my front/back room placement, that is the result. DEQ is controversial for some, but when used properly, I find it indispensable. I don't recommend using it with brighter speakers, though. They need to be pretty neutral/tame unless you have a way to negate the high-frequency effect. It's fine on my speakers.

I'm sorry I can't decipher the code IMO and IME that you referenced, can you clarify?. I'm just not a fan of DEQ. I think it colors the sound in my experience but I'm not unwilling to try everything.

 

[Chromatischism]

In My Opinion
In My Experience

 

[EJ3]

In My Opinion
In My Experience

Thank you! I did not know either. Even though I grew up in the USA, all these abbreviations confound people that have not been here in the last 25 years or so.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Thank you! I did not know either. Even though I grew up in the USA, all these abbreviations confound people that have not been here in the last 25 years or so.

Been in the USA for a bit over six decades now (my arrival coincided with my first breath). I knew IMHO; but never would have guessed what IMO and IME was supposed to mean either.