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Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)

Are you a current Denon/Marantz AVR Owner and if so what do you think of Audyssey's MultEQ-X?

  • I'm a current AVR owner. $200 price is acceptable. I've already purchased it.

  • I'm a current AVR owner. $200 price is acceptable. I’m willing to spend the money once I learn more.

  • I'm a current AVR owner. $200 price is too high. Anything lower is better.

  • I'm not a current Denon/Marantz AVR owner. $200 price is acceptable.

  • I'm not a current Denon/Marantz AVR owner. $200 price is too high. Anything lower lower is better.

  • I'm a current AVR owner. $200 price is acceptable, but I don't like the restrictive terms. Wont buy.

  • I'm not an owner. $200 price is acceptable, but I don't like the restrictive terms. Wont buy.

  • Other (please explain).


Results are only viewable after voting.
I've had a terrible time with dynamic EQ to be honest. Bloated sound is my general complaint.
My experience is quite different. May be because you dialed everything in while dynamic EQ is disabled and switching it on will over compensate?
I did my dial in on music with dynEQ ref set to -15dB. In this way movies sound good with dynEQ set to 0dB ref level
 
I've had a terrible time with dynamic EQ to be honest. Bloated sound is my general complaint.
I've never had bloated sound with Dynamic EQ. I think the only way that could happen is if I tried running a custom curve on top of it. You generally only need one or the other. If you dial in your sub levels with DEQ on during some nice bassy reference tracks and movies, it will always be on point.

Honestly, I think your problem is your custom curve, or you need vented subs to get the satisfying movie experience that you're after. I know that's what cured it for me. I went 2xF12 to 2xG22 to 2xFV15HP2 and that is when I stopped searching. Not only do they have the output, but they also have the tactility that the G22's were lacking and that makes a huge difference to the experience.

I'll have a listen to some of your tracks to see if they sound right on my system.

I assume you have your room modes and dips sorted?
 
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So I decided to set a home theater profile and try to play The matrix again today. I added a -0.6 tilt and +1 bass shelf and then the matrix was acceptable but nowhere near where I had it 20 years ago.

In the classic scene when Neo and Trinity walk into the military building past the metal detectors and they get in the shootout and do somersaults and twirl and blow up the lobby of the building... You have to hear that deep soundtrack of music playing through... You need the highs of all the bullets and shells you need the explosions and you need that musical bass soundtrack. That is a go-to measurement for me. It is locked into my brain. I played that movie last night with my music setting and it was absolutely embarrassing. I juice it up today and it was way more enjoyable but not the way I remember it in any stretch the imagination... Still so weak even with the big tilt and the bass boost. I don't understand exactly but I guess that's why I'm on this journey.
Not really sure what tool are you using to "manage" Audy. The built in version of Audy does not allow much flexibility. $20 Android/iOS app (built by D&M) is the starting point and then $200 MultiEQ-X Windows app (built by Audy) is the next step. On 6700H I remember using 2 presets using either of the apps (from memory, but pretty sure though), so would be surprised in the 8500H does not have them. After doing calibration with app, at the end it is asking if I want to upload to Preset 1 or 2.

Audy is known to reduce the bass output after calibration, so many increase bass level either at the sub/s or AVR. In addition, perhaps you need the curve to enhance the bass to your liking. All speakers should be set as small, and probably should choose 80hz crossover as a starting point, or higher for the speakers where Audy recommended a higher crossover. Bass management should be set to LFE and LFP to 120hz.

Positioning of the subs should also be taken into account both in terms of frequency response and SPL. Subs in wrong places might not produce smooth response and subs too far away might not hit the SPL you desire. Also, for optimal results, your subs should measure not more than 6m distance (not physical distance though) otherwise timing might be off. Sometimes engaging DSP at sub level pushes subs beyond this limit. At calibration people usually set the sub volume so that it is a bit above the Audy "green" line, so that calibration ends up with negative trim. Negative trim can be up to -11.5dB as if you hit -12dB that is the max so you can not be sure if you are or not over the line.

Hope you will be able to tune in your 8500H. It is a great AVR and should be able to give you excellent results in all aspects.
 
With this system I have to turn off all tilt and bass enhancements because it's just too much. It's perfect without touching anything...for music. Sucks for movies.
The room correction today is way better then 20 years ago, the best programs today can also correct phase.
Dirac can do that and A1 Evo also, i doubt MultiEQ X can.
I use Evo v3 it sounds great with music and movies.
 
Not really sure what tool are you using to "manage" Audy. The built in version of Audy does not allow much flexibility. $20 Android/iOS app (built by D&M) is the starting point and then $200 MultiEQ-X Windows app (built by Audy) is the next step. On 6700H I remember using 2 presets using either of the apps (from memory, but pretty sure though), so would be surprised in the 8500H does not have them. After doing calibration with app, at the end it is asking if I want to upload to Preset 1 or 2.

Audy is known to reduce the bass output after calibration, so many increase bass level either at the sub/s or AVR. In addition, perhaps you need the curve to enhance the bass to your liking. All speakers should be set as small, and probably should choose 80hz crossover as a starting point, or higher for the speakers where Audy recommended a higher crossover. Bass management should be set to LFE and LFP to 120hz.

Positioning of the subs should also be taken into account both in terms of frequency response and SPL. Subs in wrong places might not produce smooth response and subs too far away might not hit the SPL you desire. Also, for optimal results, your subs should measure not more than 6m distance (not physical distance though) otherwise timing might be off. Sometimes engaging DSP at sub level pushes subs beyond this limit. At calibration people usually set the sub volume so that it is a bit above the Audy "green" line, so that calibration ends up with negative trim. Negative trim can be up to -11.5dB as if you hit -12dB that is the max so you can not be sure if you are or not over the line.

Hope you will be able to tune in your 8500H. It is a great AVR and should be able to give you excellent results in all aspects.
I use the $200 windows app and REW to help me square up the subwoofer volume. X8500h has just one preset unfortunately. I think the solution is simply to have two different configuration files. One for HT and one for music. A little bit of a pain but not terrible only takes 90 seconds to load a new config file.
 
I've never had bloated sound with Dynamic EQ. I think the only way that could happen is if I tried running a custom curve on top of it. You generally only need one or the other. If you dial in your sub levels with DEQ on during some nice bassy reference tracks and movies, it will always be on point.

Honestly, I think your problem is your custom curve, or you need vented subs to get the satisfying movie experience that you're after. I know that's what cured it for me. I went 2xF12 to 2xG22 to 2xFV15HP2 and that is when I stopped searching. Not only do they have the output, but they also have the tactility that the G22's were lacking and that makes a huge difference to the experience.

I'll have a listen to some of your tracks to see if they sound right on my system.

I assume you have your room modes and dips sorted?
There are a number of things here to think about and try. Thank you. With the F226be I have found that I don't need to use a house curve at all for music. I will play with Dynamic EQ again for movies. Can't stand it for music.
 
I use the $200 windows app and REW to help me square up the subwoofer volume. X8500h has just one preset unfortunately. I think the solution is simply to have two different configuration files. One for HT and one for music. A little bit of a pain but not terrible only takes 90 seconds to load a new config file.
Do you at least get flat and reference options for your one preset (which you really should as that was a long time Audy feature)? With MultiEQ-X app you could set up one for music and the other one for movies. They can be completely different in all aspects - but they need to share the same configuration layout (number of speakers and placement). Changing them would be as easy as push of a button on the phone interface.

I use 2 presets with two curves for each on AV-10 and change based on the content. If you calibrate your system for Matrix, it unfortunately does not mean it will be similarly good for all material. While this might not be popular view, I don't think there is a reference calibration for movies given the variety of the content.
 
There are a number of things here to think about and try. Thank you. With the F226be I have found that I don't need to use a house curve at all for music. I will play with Dynamic EQ again for movies. Can't stand it for music.
When you play a movie soundtrack, does it sound the same as the movie? This test would be telling.

Something like Hans Zimmer's "2049" or "Bladerunner", or Edge of Tomorrow's "Combat Training" should have plenty of deep bass.
 
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Before you go off futzing with Audyssey ...are you talking about downmixing the surround soundtrack of The Matrix to 2.2, and comparing that to a 2 channel music recording played over 2.2? Or is there a dedicated 2 channel mix for the movie?

As for your system 30 years ago sounding so much better...your memories are no doubt highly colored by the passage of time, not to mention different room acoustics. Unless that old system in the very same room you're listening in now?

(Leaving aside that diagnosing problems like these without a good set of in-room measurements from the MLP, can quickly become a kind of a down-the-rabbit-hole adventure)
 
Before you go off futzing with Audyssey ...are you talking about downmixing the surround soundtrack of The Matrix to 2.2, and comparing that to a 2 channel music recording played over 2.2? Or is there a dedicated 2 channel mix for the movie?
What he's talking about, I think, is that for his musical preferences, he doesn't like a lot of bass*. But that setup doesn't work well for movies.

*I have yet to give those tracks a listen. Working on the car suspension today...
 
If the movie soundtrack has LFE content, it will at times naturally have more deep bass than almost any 2 channel music release.

I'm still not clear on what Acerun is comparing.

One of his tracks is from Two Against Nature. The 5.1 DVDA of that has prominent LFE content. That might be a more proper comparison to the video soundtrack of The Matrix.
 
Before you go off futzing with Audyssey ...are you talking about downmixing the surround soundtrack of The Matrix to 2.2, and comparing that to a 2 channel music recording played over 2.2? Or is there a dedicated 2 channel mix for the movie?

As for your system 30 years ago sounding so much better...your memories are no doubt highly colored by the passage of time, not to mention different room acoustics. Unless that old system in the very same room you're listening in now?

(Leaving aside that diagnosing problems like these without a good set of in-room measurements from the MLP, can quickly become a kind of a down-the-rabbit-hole adventure)
And, perhaps an audio frequency hearing test might be in order: there is a high probability that the level of sensitivity (or not) to certain frequencies have changed.
 
What he's talking about, I think, is that for his musical preferences, he doesn't like a lot of bass*. But that setup doesn't work well for movies.

*I have yet to give those tracks a listen. Working on the car suspension today...
Oh I like a lot of bass, but I like the bass under control where the basa notes are well defined and with my two sealed Rythmik 15" subs plus room gain I have it in spades. But that same perfect deep bass for music that doesn't translate to action movies in 5.2. well to clarify, the bass doesn't work the way I want it to. Maybe I do need ported subs to get there but I don't really want to give up the purity of the sealed subs that go down under 20 in complete control of the notes. Maybe that's just the trade-off.
 
This is my Music Only REW measurement
 

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  • 7.27.24 Music Only.png
    7.27.24 Music Only.png
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And the 5.2 measurement?
Oh I don't know how to measure that properly. This gets both subwoofers and the left and both subwoofers and the right. As well as the left right and subwoofers alone.
 
Oh I don't know how to measure that properly. This gets both subwoofers and the left and both subwoofers and the right. As well as the left right and subwoofers alone.
Not having had 5.2 since the early 1990's (I went back to 2.2 stereo around the mid 1990's), I must say that I do not know how to measure it properly , either.
 
By the way thank you all for your input and trying to figure this out with me. I just watched dune part 2 tonight and it successfully rattled my cage... So much so that I had to tone it down a little bit. It's possible that the matrix was mixed so long ago that it doesn't translate to modern systems as well.. not sure. I probably had an open ported subwoofer 20 yrs ago as well. I've got movies on a -0.5 tilt and I'll keep experimenting.. maybe even play around with putting everything back to the music setting and using dynamic eq... Got a few things to try but worst case scenario uploading two different configuration files isn't awful.
 
By the way thank you all for your input and trying to figure this out with me. I just watched dune part 2 tonight and it successfully rattled my cage... So much so that I had to tone it down a little bit. It's possible that the matrix was mixed so long ago that it doesn't translate to modern systems as well.. not sure. I probably had an open ported subwoofer 20 yrs ago as well. I've got movies on a -0.5 tilt and I'll keep experimenting.. maybe even play around with putting everything back to the music setting and using dynamic eq... Got a few things to try but worst case scenario uploading two different configuration files isn't awful.
Ported woofer here (and always, since the mid 70's, will be).
The pair that I have at the moment are 2 of the larger (black) floor firing (my preference, for whatever reason) Radio Shack cabs, tuned to 29 Hz. Years & years ago (while I was in Saipan) I replaced the original woofers with a pair of Pioneer Automotive 12 inch dual 4 OHM voice coil competition 12" subs that have a rated FR of 20 Hz-80 Hz (while I have the paperwork in my files, I do not have access to the rest of the specs at the moment). I paired them with a NAD 2200 that Amir tested a long time ago, wiring the the dual voice coil circuit so that each woofer presents a 4 OHM load.
I have them about 6 inches from the back wall & about 18 inches from the side walls (the floors are hardwood & there is a couch, a love seat, triple moderate visibility [together they still let some diffused light in as the sun is going down]) curtains on the bay window.
The room is 15' L X 7' H X 13' W with to openings (no doors, open floor plan) toward the middle of the house, one is 3'8" W X 7' H, the other is 3'4" W X 6'8" H.
I am running one bridged mono NAD 2200 one each of my pair of Dahlquist M-905 speakers (having been tested to a FR 26 Hz-20 KHz +-2DB)
Now to the amount of power I can apply to these subs (actually to the system since I run 2 NAD 2200 amps bridged mono for the mains ([8 OHM mode]) and one NAD 2200 amp in stereo (4 OHMs) for the subs.
My High Cut filter is at 60HZ Low Cut filter is at 80 HZ.
So far: BASS (no matter what input it is coming from) can be adjusted to be "adequate" (or to be more impressive [to unknowing guests] "much more than necessary")
I only run the NAD 2200's using the LAB INPUTS (whether running bridged mono or not) :

NAD 2200 Vintage Amplifier Review​


NAD 2200 stereo power amplifier power into 4 ohm Peak and Max audio measurements.png


Wow, we have one kilowatt of power coming out of this amp in short duration!

I was surprised that the frequency response was not flat but was relieved to see later in the thread that this is due to insertion of low and high pass filters. So here is the frequency response with Lab input that doesn't have such a filter:

NAD 2200 stereo power amplifier frequency response audio measurements.png


Response now (in green) as it should be, ruler flat to below 10 Hz, and well extending past the 40 kHz limit of this measurement.

I figured the filters may be adding some noise/distortion so re-ran the dashboard again:
NAD 2200 stereo power amplifier Lab Input audio measurements.png


Distortion doesn't change but if you look at the noise floor at 20 Hz, it is down by some 10 dB. That improves SINAD a couple of dBs, making the amplifier stand out even more!
Best vintage stereo amplifier review measurements.png


Zoomed:

1591750335920.png


And signal to noise ratio:

NAD 2200 stereo power amplifier SNR Lab input audio measurements.png


Conclusions
Nice to see innovation like this from equipment that is over 30 years old! Shame on manufacturers that produce amplifiers for much less power, more distortion and higher prices these days. No, you don't get a fancy case here and sheet metal is strictly budget category. But you are not going to sit on the amp. The guts are where it matters and NAD 2200 delivers.

NOTE: the output relay on stock 2200 gets corroded and fails over time. There are videos and DIY threads on how to upgrade the relay there to fix the problem. The unit tested here has that fix. Other than that, there are not reports of many other reliability issues even though NAD products are often said to be less reliable than other brands.

Overall, I am happy to recommend the NAD 2200. I almost gave it the highest honors but given the upgraded nature of the test unit, and the fact that used amps may have issues, I avoided that. But you could have easily pushed me to give it the golfing panther.
 
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Oh I like a lot of bass, but I like the bass under control where the basa notes are well defined and with my two sealed Rythmik 15" subs plus room gain I have it in spades. But that same perfect deep bass for music that doesn't translate to action movies in 5.2. well to clarify, the bass doesn't work the way I want it to. Maybe I do need ported subs to get there but I don't really want to give up the purity of the sealed subs that go down under 20 in complete control of the notes. Maybe that's just the trade-off.
I spent a considerable amount of time (a few years) thinking that, all the while trying these different sealed subs, researching, and reading from others who took a similar journey. When I wasn't getting satisfaction, I threw a Hail Mary and got the FV15HP2's.

It's not that I wasn't happy with sound quality or output under normal circumstances. I wanted something that could do 6dB over what I normally needed and therefore with the port assist, hit harder and achieve the LFE moments I was after with much less strain. Woofer excursion and distortion are lower. All the while not giving up much, if any, sound quality. I'm convinced the only difference with sealed subs is the psychoacoustic effect of perceiving less of the really low bass which gives the perception of overall "tight" bass. But the trade-off you get for saving floor space is more strain at the low end as the subs hit their limits. I find getting the balance right for music and movies a lot easier now since the low end is just "there" and all I have to do is get my sub integration right and not think about house curves, at least not in the small rooms I work with that have loads of reinforcement. Now the big LFE scenes hit harder and they do so effortlessly, while my music sounds the same, or slightly better. I would say my music improved by 10% while movies improved 50%.

I am not saying you need to rush to replace your subs. What you have is great. And especially because you should be able to get music and movies sounding amazing with only one set of settings. I always did.
 
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