Audyssey XT32 - problems with neutered sub

[Skycatcher]

Hi guys, I’m hoping someone may have a suggestion as to what’s going on.

I had a Denon AVR-X3600H running with an SVS-SB1000 and another small sub on the other end of the room for fill. Fronts are RP8000Fs.

I‘ve run many calibrations with the X3600 and most of the time they turned out well.

Now I bought a Denon X3800H. Same XT32 RC so I was expecting similar results since the room is the same. The problem is that the low end is severely lacking.

The trim was set to -10 (which the old AVR had also set). With the new AVR I had to bump it about 7 dB to get in the approximate same ballpark. That’s a huge delta, but even with the bump it sounds off. I don’t have any measurements to back this up right now so I’m not sure what’s going on.

I swapped over to music to have a listen. If I turn the sub off in the UI the fronts sound amazing. Probably a solid 3+ dB more bass and a full sound. Sub on and you immediately hear the lack of low end. The old AVR had a slight bump when the sub was on. Currently the bass is set to lfe + main for music. Fronts crossed at 60hz.

I ran a frequency sweep on the sub and I’m getting a strong response at 25+hz, 24hz is where the sub drops off so that all seems to check out.

The intro to Bladerunner would shake the room with the old AVR and on the new one I upped the trim 7db and also turned up the gain from 50% to 75% so get about the same results.

I have no idea why there’s such a difference and I’m starting to think about getting MultEQ-X or Dirac Live, but maybe someone here knows something that I don’t.

I’ve run 2 measurements with all 8 positions.

Original X3600, X3800 1st cal, 2 cal attached

 

[Slayer]

Not sure how or why it may have happened, but it almost sounds as if your subs are out of phase.

 

[Skycatcher]

Not sure how or why it may have happened, but it almost sounds as if your subs are out of phase.

Thanks, I had a look and they’re still on 0, which should be correct as they’re up front next to the mains. Turned it to 180 and there’s marginally more bass, but starts becoming boomy.

Experimented some more and I need to turn the sub up 12dB in order to compete with the mains. Something is definitely bonkers. Even tried an upwards curve to +5dB in the MultEQ app and the only thing it did was distort the bass.

Will do a backup of the settings and try a factory reset. Everything else sounds great, just no oomph to the sub out.

 

[Beershaun]

Off hand, here are three things I would look at:
1) your crossover at 60hz seems low, especially for the size of the subs you mentioned. Try 80-100 range.
2) before you run audyssey set your sub volume so each are at 70db when playing the pink noise tone through them. That should put them at a reasonable level for the pre-amp.
3) if you aren't already, use the audyssey app to adjust your target curve. You want to bump up the bass region 3-6db.

Try those things then re run audyssey and see if that helps.

 

[Beershaun]

Thanks, I had a look and they’re still on 0, which should be correct as they’re up front next to the mains. Turned it to 180 and there’s marginally more bass, but starts becoming boomy.

Experimented some more and I need to turn the sub up 12dB in order to compete with the mains. Something is definitely bonkers. Even tried an upwards curve to +5dB in the MultEQ app and the only thing it did was distort the bass.

Will do a backup of the settings and try a factory reset. Everything else sounds great, just no oomph to the sub out.

Does xt32 have an automatic phase adjustment function? If so leave your subs at zero and make sure it's running and you know what the results are. Position of the subs is only part of the equation. The delay between the signal getting to your mains and subs is different. It needs to account for that.

If you don't have an automatic phase adjustment you can adjust it manually by running a test tone at the crossover frequency through both your mains and subs, using an spl meter at the listening position and, and adjusting the phase on the sub until you get the loudest spl number.

 

[AdamG]

When strange stuff starts to happen with AVR’s the best option is to do a backup of your settings and then do a reset of the AVR. There are good guides on how to do AVR restarts and resets. First you can just try to restart. Below copied from AVS Forums:

“
1. "Restart" - set the AVR to Standby and press/hold the power ON button until "Restart" is displayed on the front panel (resulting in no loss of settings).

If no joy, then ...

2. Soft reset - set the AVR to Standby and unplug the power cord for about 10 minutes, then plug back in the power cord and turn ON (resulting in no loss of settings).

If neither of the above resolves the issue, then you'll need to either do a network reset (if network related) or a microprocessor reset. You'll also want to reset the microprocessor before doing anything else if you purchased the AVR as an "open box" or demo/used/refurb unit to ensure all settings are returned to their original factory defaults. Prior to doing a reset, you can SAVE the config file to a USB thumb drive so it can be LOADed after doing the reset (SETUP - GENERAL - SAVE&LOAD).”

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-2020-denon-avr-owners-thread-faq-posts-1-8.3151088/

 

[Skycatcher]

Off hand, here are three things I would look at:
1) your crossover at 60hz seems low, especially for the size of the subs you mentioned. Try 80-100 range.
2) before you run audyssey set your sub volume so each are at 70db when playing the pink noise tone through them. That should put them at a reasonable level for the pre-amp.
3) if you aren't already, use the audyssey app to adjust your target curve. You want to bump up the bass region 3-6db.

Try those things then re run audyssey and see if that helps.

I have 60hz just because I prefer a warmer sound when listening to music at night with the sub off. I did check to see if there was a notable difference at 80 and there wasn’t.

Audyssey has sub volume matching when running the calibration and I’ve been relying on the audyssey mic when setting it to 75dB. On the old AVR I would measure with a dB meter and up it a bit after calibration. Maybe there’s an issue with the mic so I’ll grab my dab meter and double check.

I tried bumping the curve 5dB from the 60hz mark but it just ended up distorting the bass, unfortunately.

I did just factory reset and this time ran the calibration natively on the AVR without the app. It sounds better, but I’m not sure what the deal is. Sub 1 trim is now -2.5dB and sub 2 is -4.0 dB instead of the -10 both used to have and also what the MultEQ App set.

I’ll grab grab a dB meter and see if it’s getting the same results as the audyssey mic when level matching the subs.

 

[Skycatcher]

Does xt32 have an automatic phase adjustment function? If so leave your subs at zero and make sure it's running and you know what the results are. Position of the subs is only part of the equation. The delay between the signal getting to your mains and subs is different. It needs to account for that.

If you don't have an automatic phase adjustment you can adjust it manually by running a test tone at the crossover frequency through both your mains and subs, using an spl meter at the listening position and, and adjusting the phase on the sub until you get the loudest spl number.

It adjusts the distance for timing and does something with the phase. Many have reported that it basically inverses the phase of what the physical switch/dial on the sub was set to before the calibration. I’ve never had a problem with it on the x3600 or x1700 as it’s always done a good job of integrating the subs.

I’m grabbing my dB meter and testing against the calibration mic to see if they both report the same numbers as the next step. I’ll definitely see what kind of impact a manual phase adjustment has, thanks!

 

[Beershaun]

I have 60hz just because I prefer a warmer sound when listening to music at night with the sub off. I did check to see if there was a notable difference at 80 and there wasn’t.

Audyssey has sub volume matching when running the calibration and I’ve been relying on the audyssey mic when setting it to 75dB. On the old AVR I would measure with a dB meter and up it a bit after calibration. Maybe there’s an issue with the mic so I’ll grab my dab meter and double check.

I tried bumping the curve 5dB from the 60hz mark but it just ended up distorting the bass, unfortunately.

I did just factory reset and this time ran the calibration natively on the AVR without the app. It sounds better, but I’m not sure what the deal is. Sub 1 trim is now -2.5dB and sub 2 is -4.0 dB instead of the -10 both used to have and also what the MultEQ App set.

I’ll grab grab a dB meter and see if it’s getting the same results as the audyssey mic when level matching the subs.

Cool. Those trim levels sound more reasonable as well. If it sounds better to you with your fronts on full range than stick with it. You should make sure the phase is dialed in though since you will be running same frequency range on your subs and fronts.

 

[Beershaun]

It adjusts the distance for timing and does something with the phase. Many have reported that it basically inverses the phase of what the physical switch/dial on the sub was set to before the calibration. I’ve never had a problem with it on the x3600 or x1700 as it’s always done a good job of integrating the subs.

I’m grabbing my dB meter and testing against the calibration mic to see if they both report the same numbers as the next step. I’ll definitely see what kind of impact a manual phase adjustment has, thanks!

One thing, with the 3800 you now have 2 independent subwoofer outs. Which means levels and phase can be adjusted independently for each. You may just be hearing less bass distortion than you had in the past. And the answer to that is to turn it up. not trying to contradict your experience, just saying a common outcome of properly set room correction is perception of less bass because it's less boomy. This in turn allows you to turn it up.

 

[Skycatcher]

One thing, with the 3800 you now have 2 independent subwoofer outs. Which means levels and phase can be adjusted independently for each. You may just be hearing less bass distortion than you had in the past. And the answer to that is to turn it up. not trying to contradict your experience, just saying a common outcome of properly set room correction is perception of less bass because it's less boomy. This in turn allows you to turn it up.

appreciate it, but the x3600 had dual sub outputs. Only difference is this one has 4 now, but I’ll save those for bass shakers if I ever go that route. I haven’t had boomy subs in a while, but I get where you’re coming from. Now I’ve got a decent sub response after tinkering a while, but it’s so much worse because now the individual sound modes have different volume levels. Atmos and DD are about 20dB too quiet while stereo is fine and neural:x upmixing is about 10dB too loud - all from the same source.

Maybe I just got a lemon, but there’s too many things off that shouldn’t be happening.

 

[Beershaun]

appreciate it, but the x3600 had dual sub outputs. Only difference is this one has 4 now, but I’ll save those for bass shakers if I ever go that route. I haven’t had boomy subs in a while, but I get where you’re coming from. Now I’ve got a decent sub response after tinkering a while, but it’s so much worse because now the individual sound modes have different volume levels. Atmos and DD are about 20dB too quiet while stereo is fine and neural:x upmixing is about 10dB too loud - all from the same source.

Maybe I just got a lemon, but there’s too many things off that shouldn’t be happening.

I believe the x3600 dual outs were just a y-split and not actually separately managed. I may be wrong but it may be worth double checking.

The different levels with different sound modes is not unusual. I have the same problem. It's part of Dolby Atmos spec. to allow for some amount of head room. When I listen to Dolby Atmos music streaming on Tidal it is all over the place. One track will be at -32db on the volume know to get 80db spl.and the next track will be at -20db on the volume knob. It's insane.

Stereo listening is generally at -42db on my volume knob and Dolby Surround is generally at -38. Dolby Atmos movies generally are at -32db on my volume knob. All from the same FireTV cube source. It's a real confusing pain.

 

[Skycatcher]

Just posting a follow up. Turns out there are some bad batches of microphones that shipped. My local dealer has had multiple people with issues as well and I was able to get my old 3600 mic back and everything is fine now.

Anything from bad measurements to faulty phase errors to bad corrections were reported. Unfortunately Denon doesn’t keep a list of which mics we’re shipped with which serial numbers so there’s no way of knowing which devices are affected until you end up with hot garbage.

Thanks for all the suggestions, hope this helps someone else that’s having the same issues.

 

[Beershaun]

Just posting a follow up. Turns out there are some bad batches of microphones that shipped. My local dealer has had multiple people with issues as well and I was able to get my old 3600 mic back and everything is fine now.

Anything from bad measurements to faulty phase errors to bad corrections were reported. Unfortunately Denon doesn’t keep a list of which mics we’re shipped with which serial numbers so there’s no way of knowing which devices are affected until you end up with hot garbage.

Thanks for all the suggestions, hope this helps someone else that’s having the same issues.

That is fantastic news!!

 

[Sister_Ray]

Thanks for all the suggestions, hope this helps someone else that’s having the same issues.

Me for one.

Thanks for this, I have an X4700H with very similar results, my subwoofer is missing a lot of oomph after first doing a room EQ without the app, where the AVR told me to turn down my SW master level -5.0dB because it was way too high? Now I did another measurement, this time WITH the app and I am getting striking similarities with your graphs.

Will be requesting a replacement microphone.