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Audiophilia and its discontents

MarkS

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So for instance, let's take some segments from a speaker review. Here's an old one by Gordon Holt/Stereophile, for the Spendor BC1. Some of his descriptions:

"Let it first be said that this speaker does have shortcomings, not the least of which includes a tendency toward mid-bass drumminess and a mild but sharp peak around 12kHz, which adds a subtle hissing edge to the sound of massed violins. Above about 12kHz, the high end falls off rapidly, resulting in a perceptible deficiency of airiness."
Did JGH (in whose ears we trust) say this BEFORE or AFTER seeing the measurements?

If he actually HEARD the "subtle hissing edge" and the "deficiency of airiness" BEFORE knowing about the 12kHz peak and subsequent rapid falloff that the measurements revealed, then that's really excellent and validates the thesis that purely subjective listening can uncover valuable info.

But if he reached these sonic impressions only AFTER seeing the measurements, well, I could have done the same without ever bothering to listen to the speaker at all. :)
 

pablolie

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Overly flowery language is *never* a good practice in writing, and audio is no different.

It's distracting and useless - and only makes sense to the writer while they are intoxicated on their metaphor high.

I get stuff like "direct", "transparent" or "punchy bass" etc, even though it will always be insufficient to truly establish the merits of the reviewed piece.

Stuff like "lifting a veil" or "a completely black background" etc etc are complete hogwash unless you've listened to a garbage system your entire life, which I hope most audio reviewers have not.

Not sure why misguided audio metaphors are the leading cause of "audiophilia discontent" as per title.

PS: The only time I felt anything had "lifted a veil" in my entire audiophile life was when I got great speakers again, prolly about 30 years ago. Ever since, the veils are gone, but I establish barely relevant preferences while I realize I am privileged to live in our day and age of audio. And if you don't feel the same, I kinda pity the choices you made to get where you are... :-D
 
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MattHooper

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If you can't be bothered to read, don't engage in the conversation in the first place, jeez.

Yep. It's fascinating, actually. Horse...water...and all that...
 

syn08

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Yep. It's fascinating, actually. Horse...water...and all that...

You and your posse are no water, more like puddles of mud.

BTW, your passive-aggressive stance, with oblique insults, are not doing any good to your cause. At least have the decency and stop playing the coy objectivist role.
 

MattHooper

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Overly flowery language is *never* a good practice in writing, and audio is no different.

Agreed. But clearly we disagree on what that means.


I get stuff like "direct", "transparent" or "punchy bass" etc, even though it will always be insufficient to truly establish the merits of the reviewed piece.

Stuff like "lifting a veil" or "a completely black background" etc etc are complete hogwash unless you've listened to a garbage system your entire life, which I hope most audio reviewers have not.

But you imply you do acknowledge it can be a useful/relevant description, is that right? Like for instance, could we agree that if you compared a worn record that has a fair amount of background record hiss - which tends to be an upper frequency artifact which often is associated with terms like "bright" - and you compared it to a CD version - that when the background noise is gone it's reasonable to describe it as a "darker" background?

Similarly, for "lifting a veil." An example could be if you had an older worn record and a CD version of the same album.
The CD version can in comparison sound "more clear and clean" and reveal sonic details that were obscured by the worn out highs/record noise. "lifting a veil" is a perfectly find analogy for this as it suggests a material that one can see through but which partially obscures, and when lifted away, the "view/detail of the recording" becomes more clear.

If so then we agree it can be a relevant description and it would seem you are more against what you see as misuse, rather than thinking "blacker background" or "lifting a veil" are inherently fallacious analogies.

It's unclear where your cut-off point is for understanding such terms. For me I would reject them if they are applied to utterly implausible claims - like a new AC cable "lifted a veil" or made for a "blacker background." However, if we are talking about actual sonic differences, they remain completely valid. For instance if a tube amp had enough audible distortion to cause what someone perceives as a "thicker tube sound," then solid state amplification, clearing away even that slight distortion could give someone the impression of "lifting a veil." And really, you would be in no position to say "no...that isn't really a good description of what it sounds like to you!" Even very different EQ settings could cause the perception of "lifting a veil". I've had some room correction settings that really cleared up some "mud" in the sound and yeah, in a sense it sounded like lifting away a veil that was slightly obscuring the clarity of detail/imaging etc.

So when it comes to rejecting subjective description - applied to actual audible characteristics - for the most part one can just say "it doesn't sound that way to me" or whatever, not "such a description is useless" (for anyone else).

Not sure why misguided audio metaphors are the leading cause of "audiophilia discontent" as per title.

There is nothing remotely "misguided" about the words you are complaining about, per se. They have justifications for their use, and many can communicate with the terms. You may as well say anyone is "misguided" to try to communicate in anything but formal, technical language.

PS: The only time I felt anything had "lifted a veil" in my entire audiophile life was when I got great speakers again, prolly about 30 years ago. Ever since, the veils are gone, but I establish barely relevant preferences while I realize I am privileged to live in our day and age of audio. And if you don't feel the same, I kinda pity the choices you made to get where you are... :-D

Well...if we are going to the "who is to pity" route....remember that most people who love music have spent far less time and money than you have to reach musical bliss and to be able to just concentrate on the music. They may rightly pity you and all of us here. But...that's neither here nor there, right? ;-)
 

MattHooper

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Did JGH (in whose ears we trust) say this BEFORE or AFTER seeing the measurements?

I don't know.

If he actually HEARD the "subtle hissing edge" and the "deficiency of airiness" BEFORE knowing about the 12kHz peak and subsequent rapid falloff that the measurements revealed, then that's really excellent and validates the thesis that purely subjective listening can uncover valuable info.

We don't need Holt's review to know that subjective listening can uncover valuable info. Our subjective listening uncovers valuable info all day long. There is no reason to think that speakers exist in some magic bubble where suddenly we can't discern sonic characteristics. And, as I've pointed out before, the only reason a measurable artifact would matter is if it could be discerned without the measuring tool - discerned by ear. If not...it wouldn't matter to our listening experience.
(Which is to say that while measurements are more sensitive and reliable in many cases, we can certainly discern audible characteristics without measurements as well, even if not AS reliably).


But if he reached these sonic impressions only AFTER seeing the measurements, well, I could have done the same without ever bothering to listen to the speaker at all. :)

Ok, but Holt was trying to explain to the reader the sonic consequences of those measurements. "how it affects the sound of music."

If you were to communicate the sound of a speaker with those measurements to someone who didn't yet understand the sonic consequences, how would you describe the sound?
 

pablolie

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But you imply you do acknowledge it can be a useful/relevant description, is that right? Like for instance, could we agree that if you compared a worn record that has a fair amount of background record hiss - which tends to be an upper frequency artifact which often is associated with terms like "bright" - and you compared it to a CD version - that when the background noise is gone it's reasonable to describe it as a "darker" background?
I have never once in my audiophile life encountered a single instance when I thought "oh the vinyl is more revealing than the CD" during my vinyl to CD transition years. Not once ever.

Similarly, for "lifting a veil." An example could be if you had an older worn record and a CD version of the same album.
The CD version can in comparison sound "more clear and clean" and reveal sonic details that were obscured by the worn out highs/record noise. "lifting a veil" is a perfectly find analogy for this as it suggests a material that one can see through but which partially obscures, and when lifted away, the "view/detail of the recording" becomes more clear.

The only reason a CD may sound worse -and this is basic science- is loudness wars and the resulting compression. Other than that, it is preference for the ritual.

It's unclear where your cut-off point is for understanding such terms.

It is absolutely not. They are completely subjective and useless metaphors. It's a waste of words. We don't want poetry in a product review.

For me I would reject them if they are applied to utterly implausible claims - like a new AC cable "lifted a veil" or made for a "blacker background."

I reject them universally, and you have zero evidence as why you reject them when it comes to cables but not something else.

So when it comes to rejecting subjective description - applied to actual audible characteristics - for the most part one can just say "it doesn't sound that way to me" or whatever, not "such a description is useless" (for anyone else).
My point is "your review is useless and doesn't help anyone, and I'll never read your garbage again". You may stay hooked on audiophile pamphlets all you want.

Well...if we are going to the "who is to pity" route....remember that most people who love music have spent far less time and money than you have to reach musical bliss and to be able to just concentrate on the music. They may rightly pity you and all of us here. But...that's neither here nor there, right? ;-)
You are misconstructing my very simple argument. I pity those who make audio choices made on flowery language that doesn't contain any rational information whatsoever. And I especially pity those who these days suddenly get "a veil lifted". These days, we've had pretty darn great cheap audio for a while. If you hear a "veil lifted", you have made p*ss poor choices for over 20 years, honestly.
 
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MattHooper

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I have never once in my audiophile life encountered a single instance when I thought "oh the vinyl is more revealing than the CD" during my vinyl to CD transition years. Not once ever.

I think your reply got off on the wrong foot, which could be my fault if I didn't write clearly.

I thought it was obvious that when I talked about comparing the sound of a worn record to a CD version, that it would be the CD version that would lack the background hiss, and hence could be reasonably described has having a "darker sounding" background.

If that is cleared up, would you agree?

It is absolutely not. They are completely subjective and useless metaphors. It's a waste of words. We don't want poetry in a product review.



I reject them universally,

Oh, so maybe you will reject the reference even when it comes to the example I gave of the CD vs the worn record.



and you have zero evidence as why you reject them when it comes to cables but not something else.

I'm afraid that makes no sense. (But maybe because you were still under the misunderstanding that I was saying the record had the darker background?).

In the case of using a "blacker background" to refer to a reduction in background noise between a record and CD...that is referring to sonic differences we all know to be real. Do you really need anyone to provide "evidence" to you that a record can sound more noisy, including background hiss, than a CD?
One can reject the use of a description - we are talking about what to term an actual phenomenon - but it wouldn't make sense to couch this in terms of "demanding evidence."

Record hiss is known to be audible. Sonic differences between AC cables is generally not. Why is that a hard difference to grasp?


You are misconstructing my very simple argument. I pity those who make audio choices made on flowery language that doesn't contain any rational information whatsoever.

Ok, I've bought equipment that has given me much joy, based largely on sonic descriptions used by some reviewers or other audiophiles (in which I found the equipment's performance to conform well to those descriptions).

I guess that makes me the object of your pity. So..uh...thanks?
 

pablolie

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Ok, I've bought equipment that has given me much joy, based largely on sonic descriptions used by some reviewers or other audiophiles (in which I found the equipment's performance to conform well to those descriptions).

I guess that makes me the object of your pity. So..uh...thanks?

If flowery and silly metaphorical descriptions drove your choice, and not your own educated judgement did - then sorry to say yes.

The rest is just a repeat.
 

MattHooper

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If flowery and silly metaphorical descriptions drove your choice, and not your own educated judgement did - then sorry to say yes.

My judgement came in to the picture when I ended up either auditioning the equipment, and found the descriptions to be accurate. Or if I bought equipment (second hand) to try out and determined whether the descriptions were accurate and what I was seeking. If they weren't, I'd sell the gear. Usually the descriptions were quite accurate.

Not all audiophiles who read subjective reviews or exchange reports with others are hapless dupes. Many audiophiles use a combination of reading reports from subjective reviews and other audiophiles in weeding out equipment they might be interested in, and then of course using their own judgement once they seek out and hear the equipment. A great many audiophiles have been thrilled with their purchases using this method.

I suggest your pity may be a bit necessary. Unless it's to make yourself fell superior. ;-)
 

pablolie

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My judgement came in to the picture when I ended up either auditioning the equipment, and found the descriptions to be accurate.

You said your own judgement. I said your educated judgement.

I am not sure what you are still disagreeing with.
 

MattHooper

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You said your own judgement. I said your educated judgement.

I am not sure what you are still disagreeing with.

Noted. Thanks.
 

Ken1951

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The recent above are why I put the dude on Ignore ages ago. Too tired of reading the exact same stuff reworded and going on and on and on. That and I could almost always predict the post. But that's just me...
 

kemmler3D

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The recent above are why I put the dude on Ignore ages ago. Too tired of reading the exact same stuff reworded and going on and on and on. That and I could almost always predict the post. But that's just me...
I haven't been posting here very long, but you can say the same about a good handful of regulars around here...
 

MattHooper

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The recent above are why I put the dude on Ignore ages ago. Too tired of reading the exact same stuff reworded and going on and on and on. That and I could almost always predict the post. But that's just me...

Good move. "Know Thyself" is always the first step to becoming happier. Cheers!

I haven't been posting here very long, but you can say the same about a good handful of regulars around here...

I seem to remember more than one member repeating himself on various subjects too :)

(Reminds me of the folks who help fill long threads by posting, essentially, "I wish people would stop posting in this thread!")
 

Waxx

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I think it's also a bit context-related if those words are usefull or not. Most people are not technical at all, and use words to describe their impression in a very subjective way mos of the time. And those describtions are subjective, and relative worthless as technical review, but very usefull as describtion of how the person receive the sound (and it can tell something about the sound).

The problem is that most "reviews" try to use that non-technical language to avoid to give real data, that may not be that good (as proven here). And the hatred against it from people here is based on that. A reviewer of a technical device should be technical minded and at least give his techincal info (measurments) before he gives his own personal view (which can be words like that). If not, it's marketing talk for me. But the thing that people try to describe sound with words is on it's own not bad, just don't use it as a "review" because it's not, it's a very subjective and probally biassed personal impression in best case, and in case of "reviews" it's mostly just marketing bullshit.

But if i go speaker shopping with my 70 years old absolute non-technical mom, and she says that speaker sound muffled, i will not ask her for measuremts to prove it, i'll know what she means.
 

fpitas

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I consider these kinds of reviews as purely entertainment. As I said earlier, it's not what I like to read, but if others enjoy, great! But I very much doubt there is a lot of valuable information there.
 

kemmler3D

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most "reviews" try to use that non-technical language to avoid to give real data, that may not be that good (as proven here). And the hatred against it from people here is based on that.
Agree with this. Subjective language in reviews is not a bad thing when 1) it's used in good faith and 2) it actually corresponds to something the speaker is actually doing.

Unfortunately a lot of reviews don't meet those criteria, so there are folks around here who shut down as soon as they hear the word "subjective", not without reason.

I think what Matt is getting at is the fact that you CAN develop a credible estimate of how something will sound (and measure) based on subjective reviews that do meet those criteria. For example, if 50 people in Amazon reviews say the bass sounds too loud or monotone, I think we should expect some bad port resonance / tuning from the speaker, probably in the 80-120hz range. If 50 people say it has a "harsh / piercing / metallic / shrieking" sound, you can guess at some distortion/peaking in the 4-7khz range, probably.

That level of insight might be totally worthless to you, but it's not as if you can't form an educated guess this way.

It's not rocket science. I don't know why people would argue so fervently to the contrary. If you know what measurements correlate with certain subjective reactions, you can also guess what reactions will correlate with certain measurements. If you have no idea what measurements might correlate with certain subjective reactions, I would guess you haven't spent much time looking at measurements while listening to speakers.

Now, I am not talking about people talking about "veils" and "emotion" and "liquid sound" or whatever. I feel that this type of language has mostly to do with imagination. But if you really do know your stuff, I think it shouldn't be very hard to tell the difference between imagination and information, at least most of the time.
 
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