Audiophilia and its discontents

[Cbdb2]

That article was discussed here earlier.

Certainly the article is packed with stuff the ASR crowd will find cringy. And it no doubt contains some dubious technical ideas.

But ultimately it's a writer trying to put his experience with new audio gear in to language...which is what writers (and humans) do.

One theme is it documents the writer's grappling with the idea of what does one want out of a sound system? He wrote about how, as someone who also made records: "You shape the material you have to make it do what you need it to. The idea of anything being “natural” or “accurate” in the field of recorded music made no sense to me."

He wondered what is the "more" that some audiophiles are looking for with their audio gear.

Basically his article seemed to me to document his journey from the mind set of not really expecting too much from a recording...beyond the basic sonic information contained about any recording...to experiencing how much more life-like sound reproduction can seem. So along the way he hears about some of the attributes some audiophiles are seeking, e.g.:

"When the audio critic Herb Reichert hears this quality in good speakers, he calls it “believable corporeality,”


Eventually the writer reports experiencing just something like that, when listening to music through the big horn system:

"One day, I brought Weiss a copy of Comet Meta, a record by David Grubbs and Taku Unami that features the sound of two electric guitars playing at relatively low volume. When we put the vinyl through his Imperia speakers, we heard the guitar lines ring and hang and interlock—and then something else happened. I felt a presence, as if someone had entered the room. The music had become a concrete experience. I don’t mean that I could see the musicians, but that the people in the music, and of the music, were with me."

He experienced a system producing a type of "life energy" from the musicians that he wasn't used to hearing, or even expecting could be part of listening to a stereo system. And it had a big effect on him. Good for him!

As you note, part of this article also has to do with grappling with language in describing sound. He's a writer with a new experience to express. And I enjoyed his attempt to put his experience in to words. And on the theme of the worthiness of putting experience in to words, in whatever domain:

It would be awfully impoverishing to de-legitimize or dismiss the worth of language and it's role in humans trying to communicate experiences and impressions to other humans. Who would want to dismiss literature from James Joyce (or name any other great authors), simply because they were using the imprecision of language, "Listen James, give us what you are trying to describe in measurements or don't bother, thanks!" How impoverished it would be to describe to one another the sensation and characteristics of a great meal, or cooking a recipe, or a sunset, or a concert, piece of music etc, only in terms of chemicals and physics, utterly missing the subjective phenomena.

Some here will roll their eyes at an article discussing audio in purely descriptive terms. But I enjoy it. Measurements can surely be enlightening about what is happening technically, but to know what this means perceptually, we need to (or can) put things in to language. There is no reason to treat the phenomenon of sound as inherently siloed in to technical language. Sound, like everything else, produces subjective experience. Audio gear doesn't just "measure like X or Y" it also "Sounds LIKE X,Y, Z" once you play music through the system. The subjective perception it produces is ultimately the point, and humans discussing "what this sounds like" "what type of experience this produced for me" is natural, normal, often informative and...fun...(unless perhaps one has some intrinsic discomfort with the imprecision of language and prefers numbers to descriptions).

As to the poor writer being misled by Steve G in to buying those Klipsch speakers...the writer seems utterly thrilled, and finds that they produced for him something like the thrill he had discovered in the bigger horn speakers. Could he be educated out of liking them and preferring something else? I suppose. But frankly I'm happy for him that he is thrilled with music through his new system. I mean, I could try to educate my son out of being happy with the sound of youtube music coming from his laptop. But when I see him dancing around and singing along happily...I re-consider why I would be compelled to do that

Really. You compare your son to a supposed audiophile who thinks his (dubious) opinions are worth spreading. When a persons thinks speakers that measure terrible and sound as bad as they measure (from Amir ". I was expecting bad sound but man, this is really, really bad sound. No detail. Muddy bass and somewhat but not extremely bright. ) are great why believe any of his fancy words.

 

[Cbdb2]

Oh dear god. Talk about missing the point.

This thread started with a non-audiophile's description of how his first enjoyment of good sound affected him, which by definition is a subjective experience, and so many responses totally miss the point.

Good art is magic. Appreciate the magic.

But it wasn't good sound.

 

[egellings]

But it wasn't good sound.

The magic should be in the music, not the system playing it.

 

[MattHooper]

Really. You compare your son to a supposed audiophile who thinks his (dubious) opinions are worth spreading.

No I compared my son being thrilled listening to music on his chosen platform to the author being thrilled listening to music through his new Klipsch speakers.

The author clearly found his encounter with large horn-based speakers to be revelatory. In trying to pin down what it was that he found moving about the speakers he talked to audiophiles like Herb who put some of it in to words like “believable corporeality" which clearly resonated with the author's experience and own descriptions. Steve G. understood what the author liked and recommended Klipsch as an affordable way of getting that type of sound. And, indeed, the author expressed that the Klipsch gave him just what he'd been seeking.

Seems like a win for the author. Tons of audiophiles (myself included) have made very happy purchases via a similar route.

It's one thing to put out information on speaker design - what measurable parameters have which sonic characteristics, and why certain people have come to hold certain "best practice" ideals. Information is great in that respect. But I wouldn't condone someone's purchases, or try to disabuse them of their happiness with the sound of their purchase if they are thrilled. Just like I'd be an *asshole to constantly point out to my wife how awful her laptop speakers are, that she should recognize "that's terrible sound!" (by my lights) rather than simply enjoy music on her laptop.

When a persons thinks speakers that measure terrible and sound as bad as they measure (from Amir ". I was expecting bad sound but man, this is really, really bad sound. No detail. Muddy bass and somewhat but not extremely bright. ) are great why believe any of his fancy words.

Sure. But plenty of people love the Klipsch speakers, the author of the article included. The Klipsch gave the author more of that "live" vibe he was seeking.
I actually just listened to some Klipsch speakers at Best Buy a few days ago. Ultimately they aren't for me, I hear the "trick," but I still get why people would be attracted to that sound.

 

[Cbdb2]

The magic should be in the music, not the system playing it.

"This thread started with a non-audiophile's description of how his first enjoyment of GOOD SOUND affected him.". He did not say good music.

 

[Cbdb2]

"Seems like a win for the author. Tons of audiophiles (myself included) have made very happy purchases via a similar route."

But I wonder how much happier he would have been buy buying good speaker instead of audiophile BS.

Also wonder if he would have picked those if he blind tested them against some good speakers.

 

[birdog1960]

Let's hypothesize a bit. Let's say I'm well familiarized with sound of accoustic instruments played in various spaces thanks to attending live acoustical events throughout my life. Now let's say we have a recording of accoustic instruments that was carefully recorded with realism in mind and then only minimally altered in mastering with huge crest factor. Now it would seem logical to me that I want my system reproduce it without any blemish if I want to retain the intended realism, I don't want any imd, thd, emphasis on any frequency etc. Now when all that is achieved and what I hear is consistent with what I'm familiar, then I'd say my system is natural and accurate or at least it can resolve what is natural and accurate.

My ultimate goal verbalized clearly and occasionally achieved.

 

[Jim Taylor]

"This thread started with a non-audiophile's description of how his first enjoyment of GOOD SOUND affected him.". He did not say good music.

I believe that the point @egellings was trying to make is that good sound is secondary to good music. I would rather listen to music I love on a car radio than listen to the finest system in the world playing music I detest.

So in that sense ..... yes, the magic is in the music, not the system. YMMV

Jim

 

[MattHooper]

"Seems like a win for the author. Tons of audiophiles (myself included) have made very happy purchases via a similar route."

But I wonder how much happier he would have been buy buying good speaker instead of audiophile BS.

Well the "audiophile BS" speaker clearly made him extremely happy. He even described his feelings as "reverent" upon hearing music through his new speakers.
How much "happier" do you need him to be?

"Good" is subjective, remember.

Also wonder if he would have picked those if he blind tested them against some good speakers.

Dunno. Odds are I suppose that in blind testing he would have picked something that measure like the Revel speakers.

That doesn't mean that the sound he heard in his new Klipsch speakers wasn't an upgrade to what he'd been used to, and didn't provide him with the thrills he describes.

We all, likely, own all sorts of substandard choices by the lights of an educated enthusiast. Any TV geek can tell me "You bought the wrong TV" and any computer geek "there are better computers than the one you use, you know!" and any smart phone geek "Android is better than your apple phone" and on and on. That doesn't mean my purchases were crap, worthless or that I shouldn't be enjoying them as I do. Whether the author would have picked Revel speakers over the Klipsch under blind conditions doesn't mean the Klipsch aren't providing him with thrills, using speakers under his real-world listening conditions.

 

[symphara]

"This thread started with a non-audiophile's description of how his first enjoyment of GOOD SOUND affected him.". He did not say good music.

“Good sound” is subjective. It just means “sound I like”.

It’s like “good wine”. We could probably find criteria for objectively good wine but I think opinions would vary just as widely.

I went to buy KEFs, twice. R7/R11 first time, Reference 5 the second time. Because they measure well and are praised on ASR. Waste of time. I don’t care anymore that they measure well, I’m done with KEF. They don’t offer believable sound, as in, I would never listen to a KEF speaker and think that an instrument or person is almost there in the room. Perhaps this is what they mean by "believable corporeality”.

 

[Ken1951]

I'm sorry. Bringing up James Joyce in any sort of comparison, analogy, or whatever, with the ramblings of the current crop of "audiophile" writers is just totally insane.

 

[MattHooper]

I'm sorry. Bringing up James Joyce in any sort of comparison, analogy, or whatever, with the ramblings of the current crop of "audiophile" writers is just totally insane.

That's just...like...your opinion, man.

(Objecting to a portion of an argument without understanding it, or actually showing how it doesn't serve the point being made, may not be insane...but it is lame)

 

[Axo1989]

I'm sorry. Bringing up James Joyce in any sort of comparison, analogy, or whatever, with the ramblings of the current crop of "audiophile" writers is just totally insane.

I don't know about Joyce, But Melville cobbled together over 200,000 words and Ahab never ran an actual tape measure up against that whale. Don't give me that mystical and well nigh ineffable crap, measurements or it ain't worth reading.

 

[MattHooper]

I don't know about Joyce, But Melville cobbled together over 200,000 words and Ahab never ran an actual tape measure up against that whale. Don't give me that mystical and well nigh ineffable crap, measurements or it ain't worth reading.

^^^^ Well, wuddya know! Someone who understand the use of an obvious example adduced to demonstrate a general principle!

"Son, if your pal Jimmy told you to jump off a bridge, would you do that too?"

Cheers!

 

[birdog1960]

i went to a concert by a local amateur symphony with 2 children's choirs and a kids violin school in a magnificent hall this weekend. Been trying to come close to the experience all last week and so far the closest is the crappy iPhone recording I have of 30 seconds. Some of the suggested Christmas tracks in that thread come close on my system but the experience is best simulated by the clip. In that way, I agree with the writer.

 

[jsrtheta]

The magic should be in the music, not the system playing it.

And the point is calling for an Uber now.

 

[MarkS]

I went to buy KEFs, twice. R7/R11 first time, Reference 5 the second time. Because they measure well and are praised on ASR. Waste of time. I don’t care anymore that they measure well, I’m done with KEF. They don’t offer believable sound, as in, I would never listen to a KEF speaker and think that an instrument or person is almost there in the room.

Interesting! Now I'm curious as to what speakers you have/like ...

FWIW, I have Goldenear Triton 7's, which are not ASR approved, and to me they sound very realistic ...

 

[symphara]

Interesting! Now I'm curious as to what speakers you have/like ...

FWIW, I have Goldenear Triton 7's, which are not ASR approved, and to me they sound very realistic ...

A few but at home I have old Triangle Celius. They’re pretty good and can do something no KEF or Revel I heard can, which is to startle you with some voice or acoustic instrument which sounds as if it’s actually there in the room.

 

[Mal]

I was watching one of Guttenberg & Reichert's chat sessions and they started talking about realism, and they said their high end systems never sounded exactly like the real thing. Steve said that if he was walking down the street and heard the sound of a piano or guitar from a window he would know instantly if it was real or a recording, whatever speakers were involved. If he was blindfold in a room he could tell from one note if it was piano or a speaker, whatever $100 000 high end system is playing. So isn't this quest for realism a chimera?

 

[symphara]

I was watching one of Guttenberg & Reichert's chat sessions and they started talking about realism, and they said their high end systems never sounded exactly like the real thing. Steve said that if he was walking down the street and heard the sound of a piano or guitar from a window he would know instantly if it was real or a recording, whatever speakers were involved. If he was blindfold in a room he could tell from one note if it was piano or a speaker, whatever $100 000 high end system is playing. So isn't this quest for realism a chimera?

It is, I think at best you can get a glimpse, or some aspect of realism.

A family friend had the B&W Nautilus and they could do this trick, of making some stuff sound hyper-realistic, like saxophone.

I was invited to someone - a McIntosh dealer - who had installed these massive wall-of-sound type speakers (lots of drivers) and a subwoofer the size of a chest of drawers. Two people could sit on it, literally. We watched a Roger Waters concert and the sense of scale was rather amazing.