ATC speakers / Monitors

[Ilkless]

And I'm truly astounded how little some domestic consumers understand about the differing requirements for pleasant home reproduction -vs- effective studio production.

You think the precedence effect, a fact of the human physiology underlying human auditory perception, suddenly ceases to exist when one is in a studio?

 

[SoundGuy]

Just to illustrate the effect of well controlled directivity, a comparison between the ATC SCM 19 and the Genelec G Three. Focus on what's happening above 8kHz, where the ATC drops of very steep off-axis.

ATC:
View attachment 230347

Genelec:
View attachment 230348
Source: https://www.stereophile.com

I own Genelec - great speakers. I don’t care for the metal tweeter despite the beautiful measurements. I much prefer a soft dome. I know our ears aren’t all the same. Call it taste if you will but the “better” measuring tweeters often don’t sound natural to my ears. Obviously we aren’t measuring everything that a rigid metal tweeter does which adversely affects the sound for some listeners. Selecting one specific measurement for comparison is far from reflective of the overall result.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

I own Genelec - great speakers. I don’t care for the metal tweeter despite the beautiful measurements. I much prefer a soft dome. I know our ears aren’t all the same. Call it taste if you will but the “better” measuring tweeters often don’t sound natural to my ears. Obviously we aren’t measuring everything that a rigid metal tweeter does which adversely affects the sound for some listeners. Selecting one specific measurement for comparison is far from reflective of the overall result.

It is not hard to see from the measurements what makes people not like the Genelec tweeters. Just take one look at the nasty resonant distortion measurements from the 8351 review 96dB is not at all an unlikely level to hit, especially when mixing where the dynamic range is far, far beyond the end-user product.

 

[thewas]

It is not hard to see from the measurements what makes people not like the Genelec tweeters. Just take one look at the nasty resonant distortion measurements from the 8351 review 96dB is not at all an unlikely level to hit, especially when mixing where the dynamic range is far, far beyond the end-user product.

That 3rd HD peak around 9 kHz and 2nd HD peak around 14 Khz are nothing else than the breakup mode around 27 kHz which I strongly doubt anyone can hear, even less when he isn't a young child and even less at those levels, we must remember that the average spectrum of music drops significantly above 1 kHz so much earlier before you reach 96 dB at 20 kHz your woofers will be distorting loudly.

I own Genelec - great speakers. I don’t care for the metal tweeter despite the beautiful measurements. I much prefer a soft dome. I know our ears aren’t all the same. Call it taste if you will but the “better” measuring tweeters often don’t sound natural to my ears. Obviously we aren’t measuring everything that a rigid metal tweeter does which adversely affects the sound for some listeners.

What people rather hear is the less sound power of the ATC in the last octave due to the strong rise in the directivity.
I have also no problem for music listeners like the most of us here if they choose their loudspeakers by taste, the problem is only when this is done at the recording/mixing/mastering side as this only continues audio's circle of confusion as if you mix something with a loudspeaker that has a dip at a region you will rather pull the level on that region up.

 

[Northward]

On axis not, off axis the tweeter rolls of quickly above 8 kHz though, see the blue curve:

View attachment 230322
Source: http://studio-hifi.com/20191209-old-site/images/SCM40-stereoplay419.pdf

I haven't read the article, but If that measurement is done in a lightly treated room or a "living room" that behavior is completely normal: those measurements are typically more room than speaker.

What happens is that often they measure free standing speakers in "normal" or lightly treated rooms using un-gated impulse responses (and this is a crucial problem they too often don't know about). So the frequency response will look tilted at high frequencies: the direct sound field dominates at HF as dispersion is typically narrower at HF (and hence room contribution is delayed and reduced in that range) but as you gradually move towards lower frequencies the dispersion gets wider, the amount of energy released increases and the room reflections will contribute a lot more and earlier (e g. SBIR) to the direct sound which affects the response curve in un-gated measurement: it's the HF tilt you see, even in nearfield measurements.
It is certainly the case if on top of this for some odd reason you average a series of un-gated, off axis responses from normal living rooms (completely useless data).

A room "tilt EQ".

All this to say that non anechoic, "living room" measurements of free standing speakers can trick and mislead you easily if you're not paying attention to what you're measuring. To get a somewhat "sufficiently accurate" response is more complex than just popping a mic and sending an impulse response. Among other things you need to set the gate time of the system so you can remove room interferences as much as possible within the given frequency range you're interested in.

Otherwise most of what you see is simply the room and objects in the room (even the body of the person doing the measurements) having more or less interaction with the impulse response coming out of the speakers. One should always keep in mind the sound diffraction laws too, especially when dealing with HF in DIY measurements.

Within non-lab conditions tilted and / or non linear HF response might be “correct” if looking at the entire un-gated impulse. If you're simply moving the mic off axis from the speakers to try to get the tweeter's off axis response: you're also changing the relationship between direct sound and room contribution. If you were to properly gate the on and off axis measurements to focus on the direct HF range (so reduce the gate time) you might very well notice that the higher frequencies measure a lot flatter than you thought on and off axis.

These things can be quite tricky.

 

[Inner Space]

You think the precedence effect, a fact of the human physiology underlying human auditory perception, suddenly ceases to exist when one is in a studio?

Yes. Reflections need to be considered in non-ideal compromised domestic rooms, but studio control rooms - especially Northward rooms, the subject of your latest tantrum - eliminate or otherwise manage reflections to the point where they suddenly cease to exist in practical terms. Understand that, and you'll begin to make progress.

 

[YSC]

Yes. Reflections need to be considered in non-ideal compromised domestic rooms, but studio control rooms - especially Northward rooms, the subject of your latest tantrum - eliminate or otherwise manage reflections to the point where they suddenly cease to exist in practical terms. Understand that, and you'll begin to make progress.

don't understand that part for me.. so if reflections practically disappear.. is that it's similar to a anechoic chamber??? in my understanding, anechoic=no reflection

 

[617]

I'd consider this design as timeless as the ATCs even though it's futuristic
View attachment 226841

They really need to make this one in the raw aluminum finish

 

[Inner Space]

don't understand that part for me.. so if reflections practically disappear.. is that it's similar to a anechoic chamber??? in my understanding, anechoic=no reflection

Similar, yes, but not precisely anechoic, which has a definition of zero reflections down to a rated frequency. Real-world installations might have tiny measurable reflections many, many tens of dBs down, but of no practical concern.

The nicest room I have worked in was one of Northward's "non-environment" rooms, which design has heroic absorption on every surface except the floor and the front wall. Floor bounce at the LP is blocked by strategic positioning of the desk. The front wall isn't actually a wall at all as far as the loudspeakers are concerned, because they're soffit-mounted and "read" the wall as their own baffle. Thus as a whole the room has minimal reflections, but is pleasant because the floor and front wall make conversations and phone calls feel natural.

 

[thewas]

I haven't read the article, but If that measurement is done in a lightly treated room or a "living room" that behavior is completely normal: those measurements are typically more room than speaker.

It isn't, those are done in an anechoic chamber, same as the above also posted Stereophile measurements which are gated and show the same beaming

ATC speakers / Monitors

Please don't put words in my mouth about the tweeters. I use KH310s which have metal tweeters and they aren't harsh at all. Besides that, my observation was about the port design. Also - ATCs aren't particularly attenuated in the highs IME. They're generally pretty even-handed. They're not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Torbachkristensen]

That 3rd HD peak around 9 kHz and 2nd HD peak around 14 Khz are nothing else than the breakup mode around 27 kHz which I strongly doubt anyone can hear, even less when he isn't a young child and even less at those levels, we must remember that the average spectrum of music drops significantly above 1 kHz so much earlier before you reach 96 dB at 20 kHz your woofers will be distorting loudly.

The fact that they are Harmonic Distortion from tweeter breakup does not make it go away. It is very apparent in listening, and most other speakers do not measure this way. Genelec tweeters are notorious for this resonant behaviour, it was the single biggest annoyance in the 90's when the 1030 and 1031 where in almost every studio worldwide and apparently has not been adressed - from all listening tests I have been a part of, it is even more pronounced than the measurements suggest.

 

[YSC]

Similar, yes, but not precisely anechoic, which has a definition of zero reflections down to a rated frequency. Real-world installations might have tiny measurable reflections many, many tens of dBs down, but of no practical concern.

The nicest room I have worked in was one of Northward's "non-environment" rooms, which design has heroic absorption on every surface except the floor and the front wall. Floor bounce at the LP is blocked by strategic positioning of the desk. The front wall isn't actually a wall at all as far as the loudspeakers are concerned, because they're soffit-mounted and "read" the wall as their own baffle. Thus as a whole the room has minimal reflections, but is pleasant because the floor and front wall make conversations and phone calls feel natural.

it somehow feels weird for me if have to mix in such environment, where the final product is to replay on consumer rooms where lots of reflections will happen, but I am no pro, so not sure will that help them do a better mix or not. As somehow I have a feel that anechoic/near anechoic chamber isn't a good idea to listen to recordings or mixing in.

If that's better, and with one fixed LP where the mixing was done, I could perfectly understand why that ATC soffit mouted, supposed on axis anechoically flat speaker have vanishingly low distortion to be the choice, but then that's only the top model of the soffit mounted, studio speaker from them makes sense, the directivity problem for the other lines like floorstanders still, lacks in those critical departments, it's one thing you choose for the TOTL pro installation product and another thing of ignoring those important metrics for domestic products

 

[thewas]

The fact that they are Harmonic Distortion from tweeter breakup does not make it go away.

But the fact that these distortion products happen significantly above the audio range makes them inaudible.

It is very apparent in listening, and most other speakers do not measure this way. Genelec tweeters are notorious for this resonant behaviour, it was the single biggest annoyance in the 90's when the 1030 and 1031 where in almost every studio worldwide and apparently has not been adressed - from all listening tests I have been a part of, it is even more pronounced than the measurements suggest.

I (and many) others respectfully disagree, even more on their current range. By the way on the 1031 the break up was just a bit lower than 20 kHz so chances for audible phenomena are higher, although most differences people hear are rather in the sound power.

 

[Inner Space]

... it's one thing you choose for the TOTL pro installation product and another thing of ignoring those important metrics for domestic products

I agree completely, and this is where a lot of misunderstandings occur. Pleasant sound in domestic rooms is one thing, and useful sound in production rooms is a whole other thing entirely. If more people grasped that, we'd waste much less time squabbling.

 

[Curvature]

I haven't read the article, but If that measurement is done in a lightly treated room or a "living room" that behavior is completely normal: those measurements are typically more room than speaker.

What happens is that often they measure free standing speakers in "normal" or lightly treated rooms using un-gated impulse responses (and this is a crucial problem they too often don't know about). So the frequency response will look tilted at high frequencies: the direct sound field dominates at HF as dispersion is typically narrower at HF (and hence room contribution is delayed and reduced in that range) but as you gradually move towards lower frequencies the dispersion gets wider, the amount of energy released increases and the room reflections will contribute a lot more and earlier (e g. SBIR) to the direct sound which affects the response curve in un-gated measurement: it's the HF tilt you see, even in nearfield measurements.
It is certainly the case if on top of this for some odd reason you average a series of un-gated, off axis responses from normal living rooms (completely useless data).

A room "tilt EQ".

All this to say that non anechoic, "living room" measurements of free standing speakers can trick and mislead you easily if you're not paying attention to what you're measuring. To get a somewhat "sufficiently accurate" response is more complex than just popping a mic and sending an impulse response. Among other things you need to set the gate time of the system so you can remove room interferences as much as possible within the given frequency range you're interested in.

Otherwise most of what you see is simply the room and objects in the room (even the body of the person doing the measurements) having more or less interaction with the impulse response coming out of the speakers. One should always keep in mind the sound diffraction laws too, especially when dealing with HF in DIY measurements.

Within non-lab conditions tilted and / or non linear HF response might be “correct” if looking at the entire un-gated impulse. If you're simply moving the mic off axis from the speakers to try to get the tweeter's off axis response: you're also changing the relationship between direct sound and room contribution. If you were to properly gate the on and off axis measurements to focus on the direct HF range (so reduce the gate time) you might very well notice that the higher frequencies measure a lot flatter than you thought on and off axis.

These things can be quite tricky.

Do you read ASR much? You aren't introducing a new line of thought here.

 

[Northward]

It isn't, those are done in an anechoic chamber, same as the above also posted Stereophile measurements which are gated and show the same beaming

ATC speakers / Monitors

Please don't put words in my mouth about the tweeters. I use KH310s which have metal tweeters and they aren't harsh at all. Besides that, my observation was about the port design. Also - ATCs aren't particularly attenuated in the highs IME. They're generally pretty even-handed. They're not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I think you need to read how they do those again.

 

[thewas]

it somehow feels weird for me if have to mix in such environment, where the final product is to replay on consumer rooms where lots of reflections will happen, but I am no pro, so not sure will that help them do a better mix or not. As somehow I have a feel that anechoic/near anechoic chamber isn't a good idea to listen to recordings or mixing in.

Even "Mr. Northward acoustics" agrees there:

"Well, our brains and hearing systems don't like to be in anechoic environments. It's very unnatural. What you see is constantly correlated by the brain to what you hear. If you're in a dead, anechoic space, the cues that your brain receives about the space don't match the visual cues. The whole auditory system will distort its steady state response in a way that it will become a lot more sensitive to small reflections, high-frequencies, and anything that can give the brain detail more environmental data about the space. Everything will be enhanced. If you get your brain in that mindset, and then you play music, what you hear is not flat, in the sense that your brain will add a series of filters in between because it's looking for missing environmental information."

Also he agrees on the importance of directivity:

"But if the speakers have bad dispersion, then that's no good."

Source of both quotes: https://tapeop.com/interviews/btg/135/thomas-jouanjean-northward-acoustics/

 

[Northward]

Do you read ASR much? You aren't introducing a new line of thought here.

No, I'm not. I never really cared about the audiophile world, pro audio is a different planet altogether. If it's not a new line of thought, which is really good news, a lot are apparently still very confused about this.

 

[thewas]

I think you need to read how they do those again.

And where exactly is my statement wrong that they come from gated measurements?

By the way the plot discussed above is not the listening window you posted but the lateral response:

Fig.5 ATC SCM 11, lateral response family at 50", normalized to response on tweeter axis, from back to front: differences in response 90–5° off axis, reference response, differences in response 5–90° off axis.

Source: https://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[Northward]

Even "Mr. Northward acoustics" agrees there:

"Well, our brains and hearing systems don't like to be in anechoic environments. It's very unnatural. What you see is constantly correlated by the brain to what you hear. If you're in a dead, anechoic space, the cues that your brain receives about the space don't match the visual cues. The whole auditory system will distort its steady state response in a way that it will become a lot more sensitive to small reflections, high-frequencies, and anything that can give the brain detail more environmental data about the space. Everything will be enhanced. If you get your brain in that mindset, and then you play music, what you hear is not flat, in the sense that your brain will add a series of filters in between because it's looking for missing environmental information."

Also he agrees on the importance of directivity:

"But if the speakers have bad dispersion, then that's no good."

Source of both quotes: https://tapeop.com/interviews/btg/135/thomas-jouanjean-northward-acoustics/

Your point being? You're quoting less than half of the story. I'd love to see where you're going with that and how you're going to misinterprete it all.