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Ascend Acoustics Announces New Klippel NFS-Optimized Sierra Towers and Horizon Center

AscendDF

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You address this later but to be clear, I did at the start use the NFS feature to remove the room reflections. Here is an example of anechoic distortion I have published:

index.php

It is extra work and I later realized that given the large room I use, the modal impact is small. So I stopped using it.

Hi Amir,

I think it is important to note that these are not anechoic measurements. Klippel's In Situ Room Compensation module does not work with the standard THD module, which is what you are using for these measurements. As I had mentioned, ISC with this module only removes the room reflections from the fundamental, and it is done -after- the measurement is taken. As such, it has zero effect on the THD results. These THD measurements are still subjected to the environment, reflections are not removed.

I have discussed this in detail with Aaron at Klippel, and have verified by testing myself. ISC does make the fundamental look better, but if comparing the various distortion measurements against the fundamental, which is the point of this measurement in order to determine how far down distortion is, using ISC then wrongfully skews the results.

For example, if there is a large bump or dip in the fundamental due to the room, ISC removes this after the various distortion harmonics are already calculated. As such, comparing the fundamental after using ISC to the distortion level is inaccurate. I would say in most installations, from 300Hz and higher is OK if using ISC, but below - it is not correct.

I know you don't want to go back and remove the "anechoic" label from all of these reviews, but it is misleading because they are not anechoic. Perhaps an added disclaimer? I understand the complexity involved but as a manufacturer, it is confusing and not repeatable and I guarantee most manufacturers are reviewing your data regularly.

Thanks!
 

AscendDF

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Clarifying this as well, I use 1/3 meter for my distortion measurements. But I report at 1 meter. This, and gating further helps to reduce impact of the room.

This newer procedure is better, but I am still not confident. If you measure at 1/3 meter, such that the fundamental is at 86dB at 1 meter, the fundamental would then show in your measurements as 96dB (10 dB higher due to being at 1/3 meter instead of 1 meter) Are you simply shifting the fundamental and distortion components down 10dB in the graphs? The NFS does not have an inherent feature for this in the transfer function module (it would certainly be welcomed if it did)

In addition, since you are gating the measurement, I would expect the fundamental to no longer be full range.

If you don't mind, please share your procedure with me and it is fine to simply email me.

Thanks again!
 

AscendDF

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I was thinking about this. From what I understand, it's caused by cancelation between the two woofers oriented horizontally. This is why it doesn't show up in the vertical directivity. This is the typical 'lobing' issue we see in MTM speakers. It can be avoided in a 3-way design by crossing over from the horizontally oriented woofers at a low frequency, such as Revel or KEF do in their 3-way center channel speakers. I have to wonder why Dave went with a somewhat high crossover point, especially since the EX woofer used as the midrange is perfectly capable of playing bass. It makes me wonder if it's a side effect of his unique crossover design, a cost saving compromise in the crossover, or just a compromise to avoid some other issue.

This is incorrect, there will always be some level of destructive wave interference in this type of 3-way center design. Crossovers are not brick walls, there is plenty of information that is reproduced below the crossover point.

You can clearly see the exact same situation with the Revel C208:
index.php


And even the Revel F226BE at between ~250Hz - 500Hz, where dispersion narrows well below 50 degrees. This measurement was taken by Audioholics, important to note the scale is different as this measurement is +/- 90 degrees compared to the NFS where it is +/- 150 degrees, so that alone will make Audioholics measurement look better visually. Plus, the equipment Audioholics uses can not come close to the resolution of the NFS.

image



It would be great if Amir would spin the F226BE, but I suspect, due to its width, it might be difficult or impossible unless Amir has installed the extension in his NFS setup.

We actually spent a lot of time trying to widen this narrowing, by crossing lower, using different slopes etc. It can not be eliminated and with all the modeling that we did, +/- 50 degrees in this area was the widest, and that in-itself is exceptionally wide for a center speaker and about average horizontal width for even a vertically oriented speaker. And, this is +/- 50 degrees in a very small bandwidth, ~400-700Hz, while overall - we are seeing a width of +/- 80-90 degs.

The mid and bass woofers electrically cross at ~ 350Hz, and we use a shallow high pass on the mid (which does help widen the area in discussion by a small amount) which then changes to a much steeper slope at ~150Hz, taking full advantage of what our EX woofer (the mid) is capable of. Perhaps I am revealing too much in this design, but I think many here will understand and appreciate.

Is this "narrowing" audible? Not in my professional opinion. You can see the effect of being +/- 30 degrees horizontally off-axis in this measurement.

index.php


Notice the blue trace (+/- 30 degrees) compared to the black trace. It is only about 1dB down between 600-700Hz. No human can hear a 1dB variation in such a small frequency range, and this is with being +/- 30 degrees off-axis from the center, which is quite far off.

Hope this clarifies some things!
 

AscendDF

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I can't imagine there's any cost savings concerns on an internet direct $2500 speaker. This is already double the price of its quasi-predecessor, which itself likely already had incredibly healthy margins being their (heretofore) premium high end model. This speaker's priced where it is to pay for the Klippel, not materials. They even abandoned the "Made In USA" commitment they used to use to justify their pricing (which I personally don't care about, just pointing it out).

To be perfectly honest, our profit margin on 1st generation Horizons eroded down to well below 40% (industry average is 60%). I am not sure how you define "healthy" margins, but we don't even include labor or fixed expenses in our bill of materials. We calculate our retail pricing based only on landed costs of the components, that is it. We have discussed this many times over the years on our own forum.

The new ELX line has only a slightly higher profit margin (still well below industry standard) but man-hours in assembling is 4-5 times what they were with original Horizons and as mentioned, we don't factor this into our BOM's, so actual profit margin might be the same as original, which frankly, isn't good.

When you consider the component quality and costs of similar components, I am sure you will see the real value these offer.

Retail equivalents, but not the same since our components are fully custom:

(1) EX mid roughly equivalent to the SEAS W16NX-001 (retail ~$310)
(2) LX bass woofers roughly equivalent to SEAS L19RNX-1 (retail ~$275x2)
(1) RAAL 70-20xram, I have seen these retail from $650-$800 each, sometimes even higher
add to that our 3-ply bamboo cabinet, which costs us a fortune (~$750, our cost - not retail)
and the crossover at $300 (estimated retail)

We are at a retail component cost that is actually higher than we are selling the speaker for and that isn't even factoring in labor, packaging (which is quite high), damping material, binding posts, labels etc.

Of course, we don't pay retail prices, but the volume discounts we receive and purchasing direct from our vendors in large quantities, are not as high as one would think.

In simpler terms, it would be impossible to DIY this speaker for less than it would cost to purchase it from us.

Also, we do not add any increases to any of our products due to our Klippel NFS purchase. That wouldn't sit right with me. Instead, we offer our customers an option to purchase actual NFS measurements of the speakers they purchase on a few of our models. Although, in hindsight - this is considerably more time consuming than I anticipated. Our NFS purchase was funded based on 2+ decades of selling our products and running a very lean business, with no $$ spent on marketing.

As those who know us well and have visited with us, while we are a for-profit company, we run exceptionally lean and I do this out of passion and not for the almighty $$$
 
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mj30250

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It would be great if Amir would spin the F226BE, but I suspect, due to its width, it might be difficult or impossible unless Amir has installed the extension in his NFS setup.
I know approximately zero about what's involved with either speaker fixturing or the actual measurement procedures relative to an NFS, but couldn't the C426Be (edit: I'm 99.99% certain that's what you mean rather than F226BE) be "simply" stood up vertically and measured? I know it's slightly curved at the sides and it's not meant to sit that way, but I don't believe it would be super difficult to support and secure it in that fashion temporarily. If one still had the foam packaging it came in, one of the end pieces might even be sufficient by itself, as long as it wouldn't interfere with the scan. I'm probably wrong.

Anyway, my intention is to post some fairly detailed results of an extensive shootout between the ELX ribbon towers and the F226Bes today. Fair warning: it will be long.
 
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TimW

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This is incorrect, there will always be some level of destructive wave interference in this type of 3-way center design. Crossovers are not brick walls, there is plenty of information that is reproduced below the crossover point.

You can clearly see the exact same situation with the Revel C208:
Thanks for the explanation Dave. I looked at Klippel measurements of the Revel C208 and Kef R2C again after posting and noticed the same narrowing.
 

database

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Eventually, I considered that in its default configuration, the Revel center tilts up somewhat. I had the Horizon pointed out straight ahead, which put the tweeter slightly below ear-height while I was seated on the couch. Based on the vertical dispersion plot, I figured that this should have been fine. As a test, I angled up the Horizon and listened again. Instantly, male voices filled out seemingly completely, and the "boxy" quality was gone. I went back and forth with the Horizon in both configurations multiple times, and each time this held true. Perhaps in doing this I was attenuating the highs a bit, bringing the lower frequencies into balance? Maybe, but I discerned no loss of higher frequency detail or presence. I'm left thinking that perhaps some sort of diffraction was occurring with the speaker pointed straight at me. I still haven't solved the mystery, but with the issue resolved, I don't much care at this point.
I know you mentioned not being too interested in the cause of this, but if you're ever bored enough, perhaps you can take REW measurements of the Horizon ELX with the mic at your listening position, once with the speaker straight ahead, and again with the speaker tilted upward. It may reveal nothing if the issue isn't related to frequency response at all, but for relatively little effort it may be worth checking out. It would be interesting to see how the vertical dispersion graphs translate in a real room as well.
 
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mj30250

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I know you mentioned not being too interested in the cause of this, but if you're ever bored enough, perhaps you can take REW measurements of the Horizon ELX with the mic at your listening position, once with the speaker straight ahead, and again with the speaker tilted upward. It may reveal nothing if the issue isn't related to frequency response at all, but for relatively little effort it may be worth checking out. It would be interesting to see how the vertical dispersion graphs translate in a real room as well.
I'm going to be very lazy and unhelpful and simply say...perhaps in the future. I need a break from muscling heavy speakers around for a while and to do this I need to move the Horizon off the stand completely to changeout the risers. I am curious too, though, so I'll likely get around to it sometime.
 

samysound

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I know approximately zero about what's involved with either speaker fixturing or the actual measurement procedures relative to an NFS, but couldn't the C426Be (edit: I'm 99.99% certain that's what you mean rather than F226BE) be "simply" stood up vertically and measured? I know it's slightly curved at the sides and it's not meant to sit that way, but I don't believe it would be super difficult to support and secure it in that fashion temporarily. If one still had the foam packaging it came in, one of the end pieces might even be sufficient by itself, as long as it wouldn't interfere with the scan. I'm probably wrong.

Anyway, my intention is to post some fairly detailed results of an extensive shootout between the ELX ribbon towers and the F226Bes today. Fair warning: it will be long.
very much looking forward to your comparison!
 

database

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I'm going to be very lazy and unhelpful and simply say...perhaps in the future. I need a break from muscling heavy speakers around for a while and to do this I need to move the Horizon off the stand completely to changeout the risers. I am curious too, though, so I'll likely get around to it sometime.
No worries. I may end up doing the same test myself once my ELX upgrade kits arrive.
 
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mj30250

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**Alright, here is my very LONG writeup which details my comparison of the Ascend Sierra ELX Ribbon Towers and the Revel F226Bes.**

Nearly a year ago, I compared a pair of Revel 226Bes to my standard Ascend Sierra Ribbon towers over a variety of music tracks, primarily while engaging dual 15" subs and with the speakers crossed at 80Hz . Overall, the Revels won out and they became my primary speakers. Several months later, I was very fortunate to be given an opportunity by Dave at Ascend to upgrade my Sierra towers to a new design, which came to be known as the ELX (a new crossover with the addition of the EX midrange, and 2x LX woofers per tower). I jumped at the chance, and after I had completed the upgrade, I put another shootout into motion.

With regard to setup, in order to minimize potential unfair compromises and advantages relative to dispersion, soundstage, imaging, etc, I positioned the speakers in an AB AB fashion and moved into the center of each pair when listening. In doing this, I was positioned roughly 9 feet away from each active speaker, and each speaker was about 9 feet distant from its sibling. They were both setup with different levels of toe-in that I felt sounded best for each (Revels toed-in more towards the MLP than the Sierras).

As far as level-matching, I don’t possess the means nor expertise to accomplish this via a truly precise process. I used an inexpensive SPL meter along with sine waves / pink noise played on the two sets of speakers. Working in this way (including introducing room interaction and all of its issues) yielded a disparity of between 2 and 3dB measured at the MLP(s), with the higher SPL coming from the Revels. I compensated by increasing the Sierra towers by 2dB when listening to them, which might give a small advantage to the Revels, but the Revels were also slightly less optimally positioned relative to the room layout, so I opted to tip the scales towards them in this case. I could not audibly discern any obvious difference in pink noise, test tones, or music tracks when level matched in this manner. Of course, the basic process followed here will mean that any fine-detail comparisons could be fraught with issues, but I am confident that I dialed things in closely enough to lock into any obvious differences between the speakers.

While I nearly always listen with an 80Hz crossover and subs turned on, my first round of comparisons between the Sierra ELX RAAL towers and F226Bes was completed with all speakers running full range with Pure Direct mode engaged. In other words, there was no sub-involvement, low-pass filter, or room correction / EQ in effect. During my original comparison between the standard Sierra RAAL towers and the F226Bes, I did not spend much time with each speaker running full range since that’s simply not how I typically listen to music. Conversely, I ran a “complete” comparison in full range this time for two primary reasons:

  • Clearly, two of Ascend’s goals in redesigning the Sierra towers were to increase bass extension and boost output in the mid/upper-bass region. If this is to be a significant component of the increased performance of the RAAL towers, it’s certainly worth giving the speakers consideration with their full capabilities on display.
  • Given the increased bass performance, I feel it’s important to determine how much of the resulting advantages would be mitigated or eliminated with the use of subwoofers, as many prefer the flexibility and other advantages offered by bass management / sub integration. Obviously, this cannot be done without also conducting full range tests.
Should you be unfamiliar with any of the tracks in these comparisons, I would encourage you to listen to them in order to gain context before considering my subjective impressions. Given the current abundance of music streaming services and the fact that most – if not all – of these selections are available to listen to for free on YouTube, I don’t feel that this is unreasonable. And hey, some of these songs are pretty good in their own right!

I will be utilizing a comparative ratings scale to award a winner to each track. The ratings in order, starting from the largest possible win down to a tie, are as follows:

*Significant

*Decent

*Moderate

*Slight

*Very slight

*Tie

Keep in mind that while I named a winning speaker (or a tie) after each track, that doesn’t mean that everything about a given speaker's performance is necessarily better (or the same in the case of a tie). I may prefer a given speaker overall, but the non-winner may still present some specific qualities that I found to sound more pleasing.

Big Ass Disclaimer (B.A.D.™): This is a 100% sighted comparison of two sets of loudspeakers. My ability to perform a double-blind test at this time is virtually nil. What follows is entirely my subjective (and imperfect) impressions of a couple pairs of boxes making noises at me. As noted, I’ve taken some basic steps in an attempt to fairly level the playing field, as well as to mentally purge myself of expectation bias and preconceptions ahead of each listening session as much as possible. That said, I understand that some may find what I am doing here to be mostly, if not utterly, devoid of usefulness. If you fall into that category, I invite you to direct your attention elsewhere. I will take no offense. I also want to make something else abundantly clear: each set of these speakers is extraordinary. They both measure quite flat on-axis, have excellent directivity, boast PIR responses about as good as it gets, offer high levels of power handling and dynamics, and maintain low levels of distortion when driven to reasonably loud volumes. There is no true loser here.

For the comparison, I selected 8 music tracks with which I am highly familiar, and which should provide a reasonable variety of different material for each speaker to deal with. I listened at quite a high volume, but certainly not ear-bleeding (with one exception which will be noted), and at at least a few dBs below reference levels.

For convenience, here are links to measurements for both speakers:

Ascend Sierra ELX Ribbon Towers

Revel F226Bes (scroll down)

Now, let’s actually listen to some music:


Eagles – Hotel California (live from Hell Freezes Over)

Revels: Very well balanced, great live sound. Nicely crisp and textured. Maraca (or similar sounding instrument) sounds very nice and smooth.

Sierras: Much louder kick drum hit, while staying very clean and tight. This made for some nice impact. Acoustic guitars slightly crisper. Very similar in all other aspects. Mildly preferred the maraca (?) on the Revels.

Winner: Sierras – Slight


Eugene Ruffolo – Poor Lonesome Me

Sierras: The acoustic guitar sounds incredibly real, like it’s in the room. Very strong and very smooth bassline. Vocal is dead center, large sound stage considering the rather intimate performance. Vocal is *slightly* buzzy at times, but this is in the recording.

Revels: The acoustic guitar sounds very good, but in direct comparison it presents as a little boxy and less live. Sound stage seems slightly constrained. Vocal is centered, but less crisp. The occasional vocal buzziness is still audible if you listen for it, but less noticeable.

Winner: Sierras – Decent


Norah Jones – Seven Years

Revels: Guitar is nicely textured. Vocals are realistic, breathy, forward. Great imaging.

Sierras: Guitar is more present in the room. Vocals are more separated from the instruments and sound even more realistic. Equally great imaging.

Winner: Sierras – Moderate


Art Pepper – Jazz Me Blues

Sierras: Tom hits sound very real, you can feel them. Sax breathy and forward in the mix. Ride cymbal perfectly balanced. Snare drum has good texture.

Revels: Tom hits are more recessed. Sax less forward, but still sounds great. Ride cymbal has less stick definition, more wash. Overall sound is somewhat smoother than the Sierras, if less live sounding.

Winner: Sierras – Slight.


Tool – Pneuma

Just a couple comments before diving into this one… This is the first track during my initial comparison in which the Revels really pounded the standard Sierra towers into the dirt, which helped prompt me to move to the Revels as my main speakers to begin with (note, subs were in use for both sets of speakers at the time). Based on my conversations with Dave, I also believe that busy, loud, and dynamic music like this is precisely what he was targeting when working to bolster the Sierra towers’ low end and mid-to-upper-bass “slam”. It was a bit tougher to completely clear my head of expectations for this track, but here goes…

Sierras: Very full sound, the compact towers sound downright huge. Great balance of all instruments and vocals, nothing sounds too recessed or too forward. Kick drum punch is remarkable. Loads of dynamics. I don’t know how you get much better than this in a passive, two channel setup, particularly with speakers of this size. This might be the best that heavy rock / metal has sounded in any home environment I’ve been in, and without subs to boot.

Revels: Slightly constrained / less large of a presentation in comparison. More emphasis on high frequencies, likely because the lower frequencies were not as present as they were on the Sierras. Kick drum sounds good but not nearly as impactful.

Winner: Sierras – Significant

More comments before moving on to the next track…Again, this one was hard to fairly rate, as the turnaround from the first comparison to this one was huge. Suffice it to say that the Revels sounded excellent and well-suited to the track, but the Sierras were remarkable. On this track (and this one alone), after making my notes for each set of speakers, I cranked the volume up further and to the limit of my own tolerance. Both sets of speakers remained completely composed with no audible distortion or clipping. The Revels sounded great, but I was just having so much fun with the Sierras. I was certainly running on more adrenaline / emotion here, so feel free to read whatever bias / excess enthusiasm into this that you’d like.


John Williams – Dual of the Fates (Star Wars - The Phantom Menace original score)

Revels – Great balance, instruments are nicely separated while maintaining a smooth coherency with each other. Choral singers stretch across the entire sound stage. Extremely smooth.

Sierras – Sounds more live / airy while maintaining balance. Impressive low-end “cushion”. Strings a bit more forward. Choral singers present more from the sides rather than cover the entire sound stage.

Winner: Sierras – Slight


Laura Marling – Soothing

Revels: Powerful bass guitar hits. Vocal centered but slightly constrained. Great imaging.

Sierras: Huge sound, very open. Bass is smoother and even more impactful. Vocal crisper, it sounds like she is in the room right in front of you.

Winner: Sierras – Significant


Nils Lofgren – Keith Don’t Go (live)

Sierras: Guitar is super clean and sharp, you can *feel* the pluck of the strings. Very textured. Realistic live sound (audience cheering, etc). Has an effortless quality. Vocal is dead center.

Revels: Guitar sounds great, just not as present / tactile. Slightly more constrained / boxy, but only in comparison. Vocal is centered, but more recessed.

Winner: Sierras – Decent


Full-Range Comparison Summary:

Clearly, we have a very consistent winner. I’d have certainly preferred to conduct the testing blind, but I wonder how long it would have taken me to clearly identify each speaker. Run full range, I don’t think very long at all. There is much more bass extension and output on offer from the ELX towers. Also, being rear-ported, they are getting a boundary gain boost that the Revels aren’t (in my room, the rear ports are about 14” from the wall). The RAAL ribbons and their virtually seamless integration with the midrange are also readily identifiable on many acoustic / vocal tracks. They get a little more lost in the sauce on busier, hard rock / metal type recordings, but still perform superbly.

In some cases, even if the Revels didn’t take the overall win, on some tracks they sounded smoother, and in a pleasant way. I didn’t give much thought to this when I first noticed it, but as the phenomenon would occasionally pop up during other tracks, I looked at the spins for each speaker in search of possible clues. The Sierras have a minor rise across the midrange, that while fairly small in amplitude is rather broad. It’s tempered somewhat when looking at the listening window and PIR response. In comparison, the Revels have just a bit of a droop in the upper midrange / lower treble. I believe that this accounts for at least a good portion of what I was hearing. Some EQing of the Sierras over this range would probably resolve this in my room. I will say that this is not something I ever noticed when simply listening to the Sierras on their own. It was only obvious when immediately switching between them and the Revels, and only during certain tracks. So, just a small nit really, and likely one that could be EQ’d to taste without difficulty.

So, with that done, what changed when I rolled in the dual 15” subs and crossed both sets of speakers at 80Hz? Well, sadly, the detailed notes that I took in a work notepad got lost in a pile of other work notepads, and I haven’t been able to locate them yet. I can share the following from memory:

There was very little change in preference / scoring between the two speakers for the more vocal / acoustic-centered tracks. For the heavier / more complex / more bass-heavy material, the Revels absolutely shrunk the gap in many cases, but, with one exception, never by more than 2 “levels” of scoring, and only moved ahead of the Sierras (with a preference of “very slight”) on one track, which was the Star Wars orchestral piece.

Note that I conducted both of these comparisons back in late April / early May of this year. In the ensuing months, I’ve occasionally moved the Revels back into place and conducted further “mini” shootouts, just to see if my impressions might have changed at all. In each case, they remained consistent. At one point I even connected the Revels back up for a day in which I made no true comparisons with them to the Sierras, but just simply listened to and enjoyed them in their own right. They still came across wonderfully, and it was fun / interesting to go back to a bit of a different, but still very impressive sound. When I eventually moved the Ascends back into place, my preference for them remained intact.

I mentioned some possible advantages of the Revels in an earlier post, which I’ll repeat here with some modifications / additions:

  • If you require a large amount of vertical dispersion, perhaps because you'll frequently be moving up and down out of the sweet spot, or if you are looking for more of a "party / recreation room" type of speaker. Even when outside of the vertical listening window, the Sierras do not sound bad at all, and they actually retain a very pleasant sound quality top to bottom, however, there is a noticeable treble drop off and some of the more impressive and visceral aspects of the treble fades away. The Revels maintain their higher frequency tonality much more solidly when I stand up.
  • If you listen very loudly while having a large room to fill and / or are sitting at far distances from the speakers, the Revel’s *might* offer less distortion, particularly over the higher frequencies. But without detailed distortion data for each speaker measured in the same environment, it’s hard to be certain.
  • If your sidewalls are very close and you don't have a need or desire for wide dispersion, the Revels might come across as somewhat better behaved.
  • Visually, the Ascends have a nice, high-quality aesthetic that would likely blend well with virtually any décor, however, the fit/finish of the Revels certainly exude a much more stylish and luxurious vibe. Even though the white drivers won’t be to everyone’s tastes, the Revels definitely look like they should sound fantastic even when they’re not making any noises. I’m forced to admit that I do miss looking at them.

Ok, I'll stop now.
 
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TimW

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**Alright, here is my very LONG writeup which details my comparison of the Ascend Sierra ELX Ribbon Towers and the Revel F226Bes.**

Nearly a year ago, I compared a pair of Revel 226Bes to my standard Ascend Sierra Ribbon towers over a variety of music tracks, primarily while engaging dual 15" subs and with the speakers crossed at 80Hz . Overall, the Revels won out and they became my primary speakers. Several months later, I was very fortunate to be given an opportunity by Dave at Ascend to upgrade my Sierra towers to a new design, which came to be known as the ELX (a new crossover with the addition of the EX midrange, and 2x LX woofers per tower). I jumped at the chance, and after I had completed the upgrade, I put another shootout into motion.

With regard to setup, in order to minimize potential unfair compromises and advantages relative to dispersion, soundstage, imaging, etc, I positioned the speakers in an AB AB fashion and moved into the center of each pair when listening. In doing this, I was positioned roughly 9 feet away from each active speaker, and each speaker was about 9 feet distant from its sibling. They were both setup with different levels of toe-in that I felt sounded best for each (Revels toed-in more towards the MLP than the Sierras).

As far as level-matching, I don’t possess the means nor expertise to accomplish this via a truly precise process. I used an inexpensive SPL meter along with sine waves / pink noise played on the two sets of speakers. Working in this way (including introducing room interaction and all of its issues) yielded a disparity of between 2 and 3dB measured at the MLP(s), with the higher SPL coming from the Revels. I compensated by increasing the Sierra towers by 2dB when listening to them, which might give a small advantage to the Revels, but the Revels were also slightly less optimally positioned relative to the room layout, so I opted to tip the scales towards them in this case. I could not audibly discern any obvious difference in pink noise, test tones, or music tracks when level matched in this manner. Of course, the basic process followed here will mean that any fine-detail comparisons could be fraught with issues, but I am confident that I dialed things in closely enough to lock into any obvious differences between the speakers.

While I nearly always listen with an 80Hz crossover and subs turned on, my first round of comparisons between the Sierra ELX RAAL towers and F226Bes was completed with all speakers running full range with Pure Direct mode engaged. In other words, there was no sub-involvement, low-pass filter, or room correction / EQ in effect. During my original comparison between the standard Sierra RAAL towers and the F226Bes, I did not spend much time with each speaker running full range since that’s simply not how I typically listen to music. Conversely, I ran a “complete” comparison in full range this time for two primary reasons:

  • Clearly, two of Ascend’s goals in redesigning the Sierra towers were to increase bass extension and boost output in the mid/upper-bass region. If this is to be a significant component of the increased performance of the RAAL towers, it’s certainly worth giving the speakers consideration with their full capabilities on display.
  • Given the increased bass performance, I feel it’s important to determine how much of the resulting advantages would be mitigated or eliminated with the use of subwoofers, as many prefer the flexibility and other advantages offered by bass management / sub integration. Obviously, this cannot be done without also conducting full range tests.
Should you be unfamiliar with any of the tracks in these comparisons, I would encourage you to listen to them in order to gain context before considering my subjective impressions. Given the current abundance of music streaming services and the fact that most – if not all – of these selections are available to listen to for free on YouTube, I don’t feel that this is unreasonable. And hey, some of these songs are pretty good in their own right!

I will be utilizing a comparative ratings scale to award a winner to each track. The ratings in order, starting from the largest possible win down to a tie, are as follows:

*Significant

*Decent

*Moderate

*Slight

*Very slight

*Tie

Keep in mind that while I named a winning speaker (or a tie) after each track, that doesn’t mean that everything about a given speaker's performance is necessarily better (or the same in the case of a tie). I may prefer a given speaker overall, but the non-winner may still present some specific qualities that I found to sound more pleasing.

Big Ass Disclaimer (B.A.D.™): This is a 100% sighted comparison of two sets of loudspeakers. My ability to perform a double-blind test at this time is virtually nil. What follows is entirely my subjective (and imperfect) impressions of a couple pairs of boxes making noises at me. As noted, I’ve taken some basic steps in an attempt to fairly level the playing field, as well as to mentally purge myself of expectation bias and preconceptions ahead of each listening session as much as possible. That said, I understand that some may find what I am doing here to be mostly, if not utterly, devoid of usefulness. If you fall into that category, I invite you to direct your attention elsewhere. I will take no offense. I also want to make something else abundantly clear: each set of these speakers is extraordinary. They both measure quite flat on-axis, have excellent directivity, boast PIR responses about as good as it gets, offer high levels of power handling and dynamics, and maintain low levels of distortion when driven to reasonably loud volumes. There is no true loser here.

For the comparison, I selected 8 music tracks with which I am highly familiar, and which should provide a reasonable variety of different material for each speaker to deal with. I listened at quite a high volume, but certainly not ear-bleeding (with one exception which will be noted), and at at least a few dBs below reference levels.

For convenience, here are links to measurements for both speakers:

Ascend Sierra ELX Ribbon Towers

Revel F226Bes (scroll down)

Now, let’s actually listen to some music:


Eagles – Hotel California (live from Hell Freezes Over)

Revels: Very well balanced, great live sound. Nicely crisp and textured. Maraca (or similar sounding instrument) sounds very nice and smooth.

Sierras: Much louder kick drum hit, while staying very clean and tight. This made for some nice impact. Acoustic guitars slightly crisper. Very similar in all other aspects. Mildly preferred the maraca (?) on the Revels.

Winner: Sierras – Slight


Eugene Ruffolo – Poor Lonesome Me

Sierras: The acoustic guitar sounds incredibly real, like it’s in the room. Very strong and very smooth bassline. Vocal is dead center, large sound stage considering the rather intimate performance. Vocal is *slightly* buzzy at times, but this is in the recording.

Revels: The acoustic guitar sounds very good, but in direct comparison it presents as a little boxy and less live. Sound stage seems slightly constrained. Vocal is centered, but less crisp. The occasional vocal buzziness is still audible if you listen for it, but less noticeable.

Winner: Sierras – Decent


Norah Jones – Seven Years

Revels: Guitar is nicely textured. Vocals are realistic, breathy, forward. Great imaging.

Sierras: Guitar is more present in the room. Vocals are more separated from the instruments and sound even more realistic. Equally great imaging.

Winner: Sierras – Moderate


Art Pepper – Jazz Me Blues

Sierras: Tom hits sound very real, you can feel them. Sax breathy and forward in the mix. Ride cymbal perfectly balanced. Snare drum has good texture.

Revels: Tom hits are more recessed. Sax less forward, but still sounds great. Ride cymbal has less stick definition, more wash. Overall sound is somewhat smoother than the Sierras, if less live sounding.

Winner: Sierras – Slight.


Tool – Pneuma

Just a couple comments before diving into this one… This is the first track during my initial comparison in which the Revels really pounded the standard Sierra towers into the dirt, which helped prompt me to move to the Revels as my main speakers to begin with (note, subs were in use for both sets of speakers at the time). Based on my conversations with Dave, I also believe that busy, loud, and dynamic music like this is precisely what he was targeting when working to bolster the Sierra towers’ low end and mid-to-upper-bass “slam”. It was a bit tougher to completely clear my head of expectations for this track, but here goes…

Sierras: Very full sound, the compact towers sound downright huge. Great balance of all instruments and vocals, nothing sounds too recessed or too forward. Kick drum punch is remarkable. Loads of dynamics. I don’t know how you get much better than this in a passive, two channel setup, particularly with speakers of this size. This might be the best that heavy rock / metal has sounded in any home environment I’ve been in, and without subs to boot.

Revels: Slightly constrained / less large of a presentation in comparison. More emphasis on high frequencies, likely because the lower frequencies were not as present as they were on the Sierras. Kick drum sounds good but not nearly as impactful.

Winner: Sierras – Significant

More comments before moving on to the next track…Again, this one was hard to fairly rate, as the turnaround from the first comparison to this one was huge. Suffice it to say that the Revels sounded excellent and well-suited to the track, but the Sierras were remarkable. On this track (and this one alone), after making my notes for each set of speakers, I cranked the volume up further and to the limit of my own tolerance. Both sets of speakers remained completely composed with no audible distortion or clipping. The Revels sounded great, but I was just having so much fun with the Sierras. I was certainly running on more adrenaline / emotion here, so feel free to read whatever bias / excess enthusiasm into this that you’d like.


John Williams – Dual of the Fates (Star Wars - The Phantom Menace original score)

Revels – Great balance, instruments are nicely separated while maintaining a smooth coherency with each other. Choral singers stretch across the entire sound stage. Extremely smooth.

Sierras – Sounds more live / airy while maintaining balance. Impressive low-end “cushion”. Strings a bit more forward. Choral singers present more from the sides rather than cover the entire sound stage.

Winner: Sierras – Slight


Laura Marling – Soothing

Revels: Powerful bass guitar hits. Vocal centered but slightly constrained. Great imaging.

Sierras: Huge sound, very open. Bass is smoother and even more impactful. Vocal crisper, it sounds like she is in the room right in front of you.

Winner: Sierras – Significant


Nils Lofgren – Keith Don’t Go (live)

Sierras: Guitar is super clean and sharp, you can *feel* the pluck of the strings. Very textured. Realistic live sound (audience cheering, etc). Has an effortless quality. Vocal is dead center.

Revels: Guitar sounds great, just not as present / tactile. Slightly more constrained / boxy, but only in comparison. Vocal is centered, but more recessed.

Winner: Sierras – Decent


Full-Range Comparison Summary:

Clearly, we have a very consistent winner. I’d have certainly preferred to conduct the testing blind, but I wonder how long it would have taken me to clearly identify each speaker. Run full range, I don’t think very long at all. There is much more bass extension and output on offer from the ELX towers. Also, being rear-ported, they are getting a boundary gain boost that the Revels aren’t (in my room, the rear ports are about 14” from the wall). The RAAL ribbons and their virtually seamless integration with the midrange are also readily identifiable on many acoustic / vocal tracks. They get a little more lost in the sauce on busier, hard rock / metal type recordings, but still perform superbly.

In some cases, even if the Revels didn’t take the overall win, on some tracks they sounded smoother, and in a pleasant way. I didn’t give much thought to this when I first noticed it, but as the phenomenon would occasionally pop up during other tracks, I looked at the spins for each speaker in search of possible clues. The Sierras have a minor rise across the midrange, that while fairly small in amplitude is rather broad. It’s tempered somewhat when looking at the listening window and PIR response. In comparison, the Revels have just a bit of a droop in the upper midrange / lower treble. I believe that this accounts for at least a good portion of what I was hearing. Some EQing of the Sierras over this range would probably resolve this in my room. I will say that this is not something I ever noticed when simply listening to the Sierras on their own. It was only obvious when immediately switching between them and the Revels, and only during certain tracks. So, just a small nit really, and likely one that could be EQ’d to taste without difficulty.

So, with that done, what changed when I rolled in the dual 15” subs and crossed both sets of speakers at 80Hz? Well, sadly, the detailed notes that I took in a work notepad got lost in a pile of other work notepads, and I haven’t been able to locate them yet. I can share the following from memory:

There was very little change in preference / scoring between the two speakers for the more vocal / acoustic-centered tracks. For the heavier / more complex / more bass-heavy material, the Revels absolutely shrunk the gap in many cases, but, with one exception, never by more than 2 “levels” of scoring, and only moved ahead of the Sierras (with a preference of “very slight”) on one track, which was the Star Wars orchestral piece.

Note that I conducted both of these comparisons back in late April / early May of this year. In the ensuing months, I’ve occasionally moved the Revels back into place and conducted further “mini” shootouts, just to see if my impressions might have changed at all. In each case, they remained consistent. At one point I even connected the Revels back up for a day in which I made no true comparisons with them to the Sierras, but just simply listened to and enjoyed them in their own right. They still came across wonderfully, and it was fun / interesting to go back to a bit of a different, but still very impressive sound. When I eventually moved the Ascends back into place, my preference for them remained intact.

I mentioned some possible advantages of the Revels in an earlier post, which I’ll repeat here with some modifications / additions:

  • If you require a large amount of vertical dispersion, perhaps because you'll frequently be moving up and down out of the sweet spot, or if you are looking for more of a "party / recreation room" type of speaker. Even when outside of the vertical listening window, the Sierras do not sound bad at all, and they actually retain a very pleasant sound quality top to bottom, however, there is a noticeable treble drop off and some of the more impressive and visceral aspects of the treble fades away. The Revels maintain their higher frequency tonality much more solidly when I stand up.
  • If you listen very loudly while having a large room to fill and / or are sitting at far distances from the speakers, the Revel’s *might* offer less distortion, particularly over the higher frequencies. But without detailed distortion data for each speaker measured in the same environment, it’s hard to be certain.
  • If your sidewalls are very close and you don't have a need or desire for wide dispersion, the Revels might come across as somewhat better behaved.
  • Visually, the Ascends have a nice, high-quality aesthetic that would likely blend well with virtually any décor, however, the fit/finish of the Revels certainly exude a much more stylish and luxurious vibe. Even though the white drivers won’t be to everyone’s tastes, the Revels definitely look like they should sound fantastic even when they’re not making any noises. I’m forced to admit that I do miss looking at them.

Ok, I'll stop now.
Not to be a downer, but in all of your comparison notes it seems like multiple aspects of the music coming from the Sierras is more "forward, impactful, crisper." This includes bass, midrange, and high frequency elements of the songs. Is it possible the Sierras were just a little bit louder?
 

Lurrus

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Hey guys. Does anyone know what the tonality/preference score is for the ELX Ribbon Tower and ELX Titan Tower?
 
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mj30250

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Not to be a downer, but in all of your comparison notes it seems like multiple aspects of the music coming from the Sierras is more "forward, impactful, crisper." This includes bass, midrange, and high frequency elements of the songs. Is it possible the Sierras were just a little bit louder?
I don't believe so. When there was a score well in favor of the Sierras, I'd turn up the volume 2dB on the Revels and re-listen, just to eliminate that as a possibility. This did not appreciably change my scoring.

I think wide dispersion speakers do particularly well in my room. With the additional bass extension and output of the ELXs, this also helped add punch and the perception of dynamics to some of the heavier / more complex tracks. As I said, once I rolled the subs in, the Revels started to close the gap on these tracks, but never to the point where I preferred them, with the exception of the Star Wars piece.

Edit: Just to elaborate a little more, in the "mini" shootouts that I set up in the months following the big one, I did more experimenting with positioning, toe-in, and volume adjustments. There was very little I did that altered my perception of the two sets of speakers, except in some extreme cases where one or the other was clearly and unfairly advantaged. Despite both of them being objectively neutral speakers (within reason), they do sound very different from each other, much moreso than I'd have expected from what's evident from their measurements alone. I'm sure dispersion differences are a big factor, but with much of the the rest existing, perhaps, in that stubborn nebulous zone of...science still hasn't figured this entire thing out yet. Example: vertical dispersion good or bad? Clearly, the Revels are MUCH "better" here, yet I unflinchingly preferred the highs of the Ascends virtually every time. Maybe wide horizontal + narrow vertical is the ticket for high frequencies? That's at least one subject that still seems open to debate.
 
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Beave

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**Alright, here is my very LONG writeup which details my comparison of the Ascend Sierra ELX Ribbon Towers and the Revel F226Bes.**
...

As far as level-matching, I don’t possess the means nor expertise to accomplish this via a truly precise process. I used an inexpensive SPL meter along with sine waves / pink noise played on the two sets of speakers. Working in this way (including introducing room interaction and all of its issues) yielded a disparity of between 2 and 3dB measured at the MLP(s), with the higher SPL coming from the Revels. I compensated by increasing the Sierra towers by 2dB when listening to them, which might give a small advantage to the Revels, but the Revels were also slightly less optimally positioned relative to the room layout, so I opted to tip the scales towards them in this case. I could not audibly discern any obvious difference in pink noise, test tones, or music tracks when level matched in this manner.

I just wanted to point out that if you look at ErinH's Klippel measurements of the Revel F226Be, compared to DaveF's Klippel measurements of the Ascend ELX, you would see that the Revel's sensitivity is a hair under 90dB, while the Ascend's sensitivity is around 87dB. So your findings make sense.
 
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mj30250

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I just wanted to point out that if you look at ErinH's Klippel measurements of the Revel F226Be, compared to DaveF's Klippel measurements of the Ascend ELX, you would see that the Revel's sensitivity is a hair under 90dB, while the Ascend's sensitivity is around 87dB. So your findings make sense.
Agreed. With proper equipment and expertise I'm confident that level matching could have been done more accurately. I'm not confident that this would have made any differences of significance. These speakers both come across as very neutral and balanced, yet they sound quite different at times. I made very little note of small differences when comparing, because I felt it was likely that at least some appreciable amount of those differences could be laid at the feet of minor SPL mismatches. The larger differences I heard remained even when turning up the speaker that seemed recessed in a specific area. For example, the strum of an acoustic guitar on the Ascends does not sound the same as it does on the Revels. There is a clear disparity between them that remains even if I turned down the Ascends by something like 20dB and left the Revels blasting away.

There is absolutely something differentiating the two that goes beyond simple frequency response and SPL (again, maybe this can be totally explained away by dispersion, first reflections, etc...maybe it can't). And yes, I know....sighted testing, bias, etc, etc....but in hearing both speakers multiple times over many months at all kinds of volumes, most of these audible differentiations are quite obvious. Blind testing for preference would be another matter. No one needs a blindfold to demonstrate that a plain baked potato and a slice of chocolate cake don't taste the same.
 

ahofer

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No one needs a blindfold to demonstrate that a plain baked potato and a slice of chocolate cake don't taste the same.
Perhaps. And yet we are continually surprised by how differences described this way seem to evaporate under controlled testing.

Still, speakers do sound materially different, so it's quite likely you hear a difference. Just quibbling with that sentence as a generalization.
 
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mj30250

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Perhaps. And yet we are continually surprised by how differences described this way seem to evaporate under controlled testing.

Still, speakers do sound materially different, so it's quite likely you hear a difference. Just quibbling with that sentence as a generalization.
It's definitely a generalization and likely an unfair one, but in this case differences are readily apparent. I'm absolutely a proponent of controlled blind testing, but I feel in the case of speakers it's more useful as a true test of preference (the elimination of bias), not so much of "do differences exist?".
 

aarons915

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I don't believe so. When there was a score well in favor of the Sierras, I'd turn up the volume 2dB on the Revels and re-listen, just to eliminate that as a possibility. This did not appreciably change my scoring.

I think wide dispersion speakers do particularly well in my room. With the additional bass extension and output of the ELXs, this also helped add punch and the perception of dynamics to some of the heavier / more complex tracks. As I said, once I rolled the subs in, the Revels started to close the gap on these tracks, but never to the point where I preferred them, with the exception of the Star Wars piece.

Edit: Just to elaborate a little more, in the "mini" shootouts that I set up in the months following the big one, I did more experimenting with positioning, toe-in, and volume adjustments. There was very little I did that altered my perception of the two sets of speakers, except in some extreme cases where one or the other was clearly and unfairly advantaged. Despite both of them being objectively neutral speakers (within reason), they do sound very different from each other, much moreso than I'd have expected from what's evident from their measurements alone. I'm sure dispersion differences are a big factor, but with much of the the rest existing, perhaps, in that stubborn nebulous zone of...science still hasn't figured this entire thing out yet. Example: vertical dispersion good or bad? Clearly, the Revels are MUCH "better" here, yet I unflinchingly preferred the highs of the Ascends virtually every time. Maybe wide horizontal + narrow vertical is the ticket for high frequencies? That's at least one subject that still seems open to debate.

So wait you say wide dispersion speakers do well in your room yet you chose the narrower dispersion speakers as the winner? Is that what you meant by there may be more to it than frequency response or maybe I missed something?
 
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mj30250

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So wait you say wide dispersion speakers do well in your room yet you chose the narrower dispersion speakers as the winner? Is that what you meant by there may be more to it than frequency response or maybe I missed something?

It sounds like you're missing something, the ELXs are the wider dispersion speakers between the two.
 
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