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Ascend Acoustics Announces New Klippel NFS-Optimized Sierra Towers and Horizon Center

AscendDF

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Well Dave I didn't say the lift was in the PIR because that is not how our audible system processes sounds...it's nice extra info is about all. The direct sound is the most important sound followed by the early reflections which have been shown to be responsible for spaciousness and is what I use to gauge wide dispersion. I'm sure you're going to talk about the contour plot but the scale is so different it's hard to compare them and late arrivals haven't been shown to matter anyway.

So checking the Spin you can see a clear boost from 600-1200Hz in the listening window, you can try to draw an intellectually dishonest line again but I think most people can clearly see it. Someone who does own them literally just made the comment that:

"If I were to say that any aspect of the ELX's response is even slightly shelved up to my hearing, it would be the midrange. There's a low amplitude but broad rise here that is audible when compared to something flatter like the 226Be."
So don't shoot the messenger dude, they're just speakers and I said they are very neutral overall, most passive speakers have at least 1 flaw that would benefit from EQ so it's not really a knock on them.

The ERDI also is pretty clear that the F226 is smoother except for that dip at 2500Hz and everywhere else is only about 3db weaker than the direct sound where the Sierra ELX has an abrupt shift around 600Hz and stays around 3-4 db weaker than the listening window so I would expect the early reflections to be slightly weaker.

The research on vertical reflections is very limited but the few studies I've seen does show a spatial advantage, just not quite as strong as horizontal, I summarized and named the studies in this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/research-on-reflections.27532/

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Aaron,

I do hope you realize you are mistakenly looking at, commenting on, and pulling measurements of an entirely different speaker. This is and has been a discussion about our ELX Ribbon Towers. You are looking at and pulling measurements of our original Towers with the updated V2 crossover, still extremely good and remarkably so for only $3600/pair, but not quite to the level of performance of our ELX towers.

And frankly, I don't appreciate your comment " you can try to draw an intellectually dishonest line again but I think most people can clearly see it" Nothing at all dishonest about that trend line, that is how they are drawn...
 
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AscendDF

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In addition, it is not difficult to see the differences in horizontal dispersion width.

Here is Revel F226Be, which I would characterize as +/- 60 degrees (using the -6dB point)

SPL%20Horizontal%20Contour.webp


Here is ELX Ribbon towers, which I would characterize as +/- 75 degs (using same -6dB point), maybe even +/- 80 degs. Although to be fair, the F226BE measurements were not made using the highly accurate Klippel NFS, but this is all we have for this speaker at this time.
 

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mj30250

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The wider horizontal dispersion of the ELXs as compared to the 226Bes is quite audibly apparent. The Revels do sound somewhat more tightly controlled in terms of directivity, but in mid/farfield listening this can also push them into sounding slightly constrained / confined in comparison. In a small and / or highly reflective room, this is probably an advantage, but in my room, the additional spaciousness provided by the ELXs is very welcome.

And a large amount of vertical dispersion certainly has its uses and applications, but provided you're within the vertical sweet spot of a given speaker, I don't believe its contribution to spaciousness is nearly as large as horizontal dispersion's is. To repeat an earlier quote of Dr. Toole's:

Floyd Toole said:
Our ears are in the horizontal plane, so our hearing is very different vertically and horizontally. Horizontal absolutely dominates the "spatial " domain.
 

aarons915

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Aaron,

I do hope you realize you are mistakenly looking at, commenting on, and pulling measurements of an entirely different speaker. This is and has been a discussion about our ELX Ribbon Towers. You are looking at and pulling measurements of our original Towers with the updated V2 crossover, still extremely good and remarkably so for only $3600/pair, but not quite to the level of performance of our ELX towers.

And frankly, I don't appreciate your comment " you can try to draw an intellectually dishonest line again but I think most people can clearly see it" Nothing at all dishonest about that trend line, that is how they are drawn...

I apologize then I was just pulling them from the website and didn't realize there were 2 versions, there is still a bit of extra energy but I doubt it would be as audible as the V2 version, the directivity is also smooth in that area so they could be EQ'd no problem. The ERDI still shows them to not be quite as wide as the F226 though, once the tweeter takes over they are 4-5db away from the listening window where the F226 is around 3db except for the area around 2500Hz. I realize Erin's review was before he purchased a NFS but it does match Harman's anechoic data so it should be fairly accurate. To be fair, I do agree all of the new versions are large improvements over the models they were replacing, I've always given honest analysis of whatever measurements I'm looking at and I would expect all of the new versions to sound good. However, based on the early reflections, Revel's Be tweeters do seem to be wider than the 70-20 and the vertical reflections also match more closely. I'm not convinced ultra wide dispersion is what we should be shooting for but for those who do, all other speakers are fighting for 2nd place behind the BMR anyway.
 

aarons915

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The wider horizontal dispersion of the ELXs as compared to the 226Bes is quite audibly apparent. The Revels do sound somewhat more tightly controlled in terms of directivity, but in mid/farfield listening this can also push them into sounding slightly constrained / confined in comparison. In a small and / or highly reflective room, this is probably an advantage, but in my room, the additional spaciousness provided by the ELXs is very welcome.

And a large amount of vertical dispersion certainly has its uses and applications, but provided you're within the vertical sweet spot of a given speaker, I don't believe its contribution to spaciousness is nearly as large as horizontal dispersion's is. To repeat an earlier quote of Dr. Toole's:

I would recommend comparing them blind, level-matched, instantly switch back and forth and a single speaker in mono as Harman does as this is the easiest way to tell differences, especially spatially. When even 2 speakers are playing together, the spatial differences largely disappear as another study showed in the link above.
 
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mj30250

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I would recommend comparing them blind, level-matched, instantly switch back and forth and a single speaker in mono as Harman does as this is the easiest way to tell differences, especially spatially. When even 2 speakers are playing together, the spatial differences largely disappear as another study showed in the link above.
I'm well beyond the point of being capable of comparing these speakers blindly with any degree of honesty. I'm just too familiar with their sound signatures.

Keep in mind that I've listented to both of them in the same room for easily over 100 hours each (likely much more, particularly in the case of the Ascends). I've also compared them directly on several occasions.

And if I am clearly hearing differences in spatial qualities while listening in stereo, then switching to mono should make them even more evident, if that particular claim is correct.
 

aarons915

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I'm well beyond the point of being capable of comparing these speakers blindly with any degree of honesty. I'm just too familiar with their sound signatures.

Keep in mind that I've listented to both of them in the same room for easily over 100 hours each (likely much more, particularly in the case of the Ascends). I've also compared them directly on several occasions.

And if I am clearly hearing differences in spatial qualities while listening in stereo, then switching to mono should make them even more evident, if that particular claim is correct.

You'd be surprised, the 1st time I compared speakers blind I compared the original LS50 to the Revel M105 and couldn't tell which was the LS50, which I had owned for a year. I thought I was unanimously choosing the Revels but I was actually choosing the KEF during my blind comparison. Then I was part of the BMR road show which have the 64-10 and are basically the widest dispersion speakers you can buy and I didn't hear any great dispersion difference in stereo. Most of the early reflections aren't at extreme angles so it actually makes sense when you think about it like that, a 100 degree wide spectogram looks impressive but late arriving reflections are so far down in level compared to 1st reflections they don't matter much.
 

MarkS

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When even 2 speakers are playing together, the spatial differences largely disappear as another study showed in the link above.
Which means listening in mono emphasizes differences that matter less in stereo.

Why is that a good testing protocol?

Test 'em like yer gonna use 'em, sez me. :)
 

aarons915

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Which means listening in mono emphasizes differences that matter less in stereo.

Why is that a good testing protocol?

Test 'em like yer gonna use 'em, sez me. :)

That's not a bad point but the main reason is that it's easier to compare a single speaker of each logistically and differences between them are much easier to discern when only one is in play. Being able to instantly switch between them is important too since our aural memory is very short. Sounds like you've compared them plenty though, I was just making a suggestion.
 

Dennis Murphy

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You'd be surprised, the 1st time I compared speakers blind I compared the original LS50 to the Revel M105 and couldn't tell which was the LS50, which I had owned for a year. I thought I was unanimously choosing the Revels but I was actually choosing the KEF during my blind comparison. Then I was part of the BMR road show which have the 64-10 and are basically the widest dispersion speakers you can buy and I didn't hear any great dispersion difference in stereo. Most of the early reflections aren't at extreme angles so it actually makes sense when you think about it like that, a 100 degree wide spectogram looks impressive but late arriving reflections are so far down in level compared to 1st reflections they don't matter much.
I have to chuckle a little at comments like this because they point out how little we know about the practical importance of differing dispersion patterns (including vertical). After I posted the results of the August Arizona Audio Club speak-off, where the BMR's walked away with the voting, the most frequent comment was that the narrower-dispersion competitors were at a disadvantage because the rooms used were quite large and the BMR's 180-degree dispersion was particularly important. I agree with aarolns915 to the extent that I think peaks and dips in the far off-axis response are less audible than many people think, but based on my experience I still think the lower-level reflections still add to the spaciousness of the soundstage and help with inner detail. Just an opinion.
 

MarkS

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Hey Dennis, what do you think of comparing speakers in mono? (From the point of view of the end-user/purchaser, not from the point of view of a designer/builder.)
 

Harris48

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@AscendDF Im thoroughly confused at this point..haha. What are the new towers. The V2 or the ELX. I can’t find the ELX on the website. I dont want to buy the old V2s that aaron was accidentally pointing out problems with.

I do hope you realize you are mistakenly looking at, commenting on, and pulling measurements of an entirely different speaker. This is and has been a discussion about our ELX Ribbon Towers. You are looking at and pulling measurements of our original Towers with the updated V2 crossover, still extremely good and remarkably so for only $3600/pair, but not quite to the level of performance of our ELX towers.
 

Harris48

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Anyone know how do these compare with Revel F208s(im currently looking at). I get the feeling they are meant to compete with the higher end F226be? Hard to find any reviews on the new Ascends
 

Dennis Murphy

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Hey Dennis, what do you think of comparing speakers in mono? (From the point of view of the end-user/purchaser, not from the point of view of a designer/builder.)
Excellent question. And I would be very interested in hearing Dave's opinion on this. As a designer, I develop speakers purely in mono mode. I'm looking at objective measures like linearity on axis, , off-axis behavior, and distortion. But when it comes to evaluating performance, I often learn more from stereo playback than mono. I would bet half of my miniscule IRA that the BMR's would do better in a blind stereo comparison than in a mono. The very wide horizontal dispersion can sound kind of diffuse and unfocused in mono in comparison to a more traditional speaker. But in stereo, that radiation pattern opens up the sound stage and usually gives the BMR's an advantage. That said, I probably wouldn't learn anything in terms of basic frequency response that I wouldn't have picked up in a mono comparison. So I view the stereo results as a potential ratification of the objectives I was trying to design in mono. It tells me whether I've succeeded, but not how to improve matters if I haven't.
 
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TimW

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@AscendDF Im thoroughly confused at this point..haha. What are the new towers. The V2 or the ELX. I can’t find the ELX on the website. I dont want to buy the old V2s that aaron was accidentally pointing out problems with.
Not Dave, but there are 4 versions of the new towers. The new V2's use the same woofers and midrange as the old V1 towers. The ELX towers use the newer LX woofers and EX midrange from the Sierra LX and Sierra 2 EX. Both the V2 and ELX can be ordered with the Titan dome tweeter or the RAAL ribbon at an increased price (hemce 4 versions). All 4 versions of these new towers use Dave's new crossover topology designed using the Klippel and are significantly better than the V1 towers. Only the V2's are on the site currently, the ELX have not been added yet, probably because they are struggling to keep up with orders. The ELX have better performance than the V2's and use much more expensive drivers so they cost considerably more.
 

MarkS

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Not Dave either, but you can find more ELX info here:
 
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mj30250

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@MarkS thanks! Clears it up nicely. And I guess I can’t buy what’s not for sale so solve that problem too
You can contact Ascend directly and put an order in, it's not necessary to buy from the website. I have no idea what the current backlog / lead time would be, but I believe they are building and shipping ELXs now.
 

RMW_NJ

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@AscendDF Im thoroughly confused at this point..haha. What are the new towers. The V2 or the ELX. I can’t find the ELX on the website. I dont want to buy the old V2s that aaron was accidentally pointing out problems with.

There are essentially 1 updated and 3 new tower speakers, plus accompanying center speakers.

1. Updated: The Sierra Towers (now v2) with Raal have a redesigned crossover.
2. New: The Sierra Towers (now v2) with SEAS Titan tweeter.
3. New: ELX Ribbon have Raal paired with the custom SEAS Excel mid and Titan woofers.
4. New: ELX Titan have the SEAS Titan teeeter paired with the custom SEAS Excel mid and Titan woofers.

The v2 Sierra Towers can be ordered on the Ascend website. Orders for the new ELX towers have to be phoned in.

More info can be found here: https://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7715-We-Saved-The-Best-For-Last!

P.S. - I wouldn’t let one person on an Internet forum dictate what you buy. If you are really interested, you should call or email Dave and see what he recommends. I’ve been buying equipment from Ascend since 2003 and they are very nice, passionate people.
 
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