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Ascend Acoustics Announces New Klippel NFS-Optimized Sierra Towers and Horizon Center

While designing this speaker with the NFS, Dave found high correlation between how spacious a speaker sounds with how linear its DI is, combined with wide horizontal dispersion, but not too wide - see his comments below.

So like just as wide as his speakers but not quite as wide as I don't know, the BMR lol? I actually do agree though but I think we should simply be approximating real life sounds as close as possible, I wrote a lot more about this here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/research-on-reflections.27532/

Hi Dennis, Base on ascend and erins measurements, both appear to have similar wide dispersion. Can you elaborate which part is wider on bmr?
Also, do you happen to know why there is roll off of high frequency on the bmr? Erins graph shows a roll off at the upper end.

The early reflections are what really matter with dispersion and the BMR is clearly wider from about 1k and beyond in the early reflections, the ERDI is the easiest way to see this. The Sierra towers with the 70-20 aren't what I would call "wide dispersion" at all, even KEF speakers are wider and many people call them "narrow dispersion", which isn't true either of course.
 
So like just as wide as his speakers but not quite as wide as I don't know, the BMR lol? I actually do agree though but I think we should simply be approximating real life sounds as close as possible, I wrote a lot more about this here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/research-on-reflections.27532/



The early reflections are what really matter with dispersion and the BMR is clearly wider from about 1k and beyond in the early reflections, the ERDI is the easiest way to see this. The Sierra towers with the 70-20 aren't what I would call "wide dispersion" at all, even KEF speakers are wider and many people call them "narrow dispersion", which isn't true either of course.

Dave is talking about the Sierra-2EX V2. Not the towers.
 
So like just as wide as his speakers but not quite as wide as I don't know, the BMR lol? I actually do agree though but I think we should simply be approximating real life sounds as close as possible, I wrote a lot more about this here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/research-on-reflections.27532/



The early reflections are what really matter with dispersion and the BMR is clearly wider from about 1k and beyond in the early reflections, the ERDI is the easiest way to see this. The Sierra towers with the 70-20 aren't what I would call "wide dispersion" at all, even KEF speakers are wider and many people call them "narrow dispersion", which isn't true either of course.
How much affect does vertical dispersion affect the erdi?
 
Dave is talking about the Sierra-2EX V2. Not the towers.

My bad, we were talking about the towers so I assumed that comment was directed toward them. The BMR is still slightly wider than the new Sierra 2- EX but I doubt the difference is audible. As I've said earlier, when 2 or more speakers are playing these differences don't seem to be very audible anyway and is why I don't know why we obsess over "wide dispersion" so much.

How much affect does vertical dispersion affect the erdi?

All of the reflections are included in the average that is called "early reflections" so they definitely affect it. Ideally, every reflection would be similar but of course that isn't an easy thing to achieve.
 
My bad, we were talking about the towers so I assumed that comment was directed toward them. The BMR is still slightly wider than the new Sierra 2- EX but I doubt the difference is audible. As I've said earlier, when 2 or more speakers are playing these differences don't seem to be very audible anyway and is why I don't know why we obsess over "wide dispersion" so much.



All of the reflections are included in the average that is called "early reflections" so they definitely affect it. Ideally, every reflection would be similar but of course that isn't an easy thing to achieve.
So using the erdi to represent dispersion width doesn't really work?

I love Erin's latest measurements. He has horizontal DI on some of his graphs.
 
While designing this speaker with the NFS, Dave found high correlation between how spacious a speaker sounds with how linear its DI is, combined with wide horizontal dispersion, but not too wide - see his comments below.
Those comments really don’t address horizontal dispersion pattern width. Really all he’s saying is speakers with less or no horizontal dispersion disruption are better than speakers with a horizontal dispersion disruption.

For many of us, that’s an observation predating the existence of the Klippel NFS by a decade or more.
 
So using the erdi to represent dispersion width doesn't really work?

I love Erin's latest measurements. He has horizontal DI on some of his graphs.

Is there a reason you think we should only care about dispersion width? One of the studies in the link I posted showed the ceiling reflections create almost as much spaciousness as the sidewall reflection, so I'm not sure why we would want to pretend vertical reflections don't matter.
 
Is there a reason you think we should only care about dispersion width? One of the studies in the link I posted showed the ceiling reflections create almost as much spaciousness as the sidewall reflection, so I'm not sure why we would want to pretend vertical reflections don't matter.
This isn't a settled issue from a scientific point of view. All I can do is rely on personal experience, particularly with my volume-compensated switching preamp.
Speakers with wider vertical dispersion than mine, but narrower horizontal dispersion, consistently sound "squished" vertically even though that's counter-intuitive. As for the new Ascend, I can't comment further without having a pair in my living room.
 
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This isn't a settle issue from a scientific point of view. All I can do is rely on personal experience, particularly with my volume-compensated switching preamp.
Speakers with wider vertical dispersion than mine, but narrower horizontal dispersion, consistently sound "squished" vertically even though that's counter-intuitive. As for the new Ascend, I can't comment further without having a pair in my living room.
I wonder if you considered 3D printing or milling something to fit two BMRs really close to the tweeter and make a speaker with very controlled vertical Directivity akin to the ''Beam forming technology'' made by Perlisten?
 
This isn't a settle issue from a scientific point of view. All I can do is rely on personal experience, particularly with my volume-compensated switching preamp.
Speakers with wider vertical dispersion than mine, but narrower horizontal dispersion, consistently sound "squished" vertically even though that's counter-intuitive. As for the new Ascend, I can't comment further without having a pair in my living room.
I'm curious, do you find this to consistently be the case in rooms with varying ceiling heights?

I too have found a preference for wide horizontal and limited vertical dispersion speakers, but it's difficult to prove whether that particular combination is a large part of the reason for my preference, a small component, or none at all (in which case it would, of course, be coincidental).

The reason I ask is that I imagine in small rooms with close sidewalls (like, say, rooms that are 8ft in width), wide dispersion could be counterproductive, as the horizontal early reflections would be quite strong in proportion to the direct sound. This might result in a congested / "squished" sort of sound. Since most domestic rooms tend to have ceiling heights of around 8', I'm wondering if limiting vertical dispersion is beneficial in such rooms for the same reason.
 
This isn't a settled issue from a scientific point of view. All I can do is rely on personal experience, particularly with my volume-compensated switching preamp.
Speakers with wider vertical dispersion than mine, but narrower horizontal dispersion, consistently sound "squished" vertically even though that's counter-intuitive. As for the new Ascend, I can't comment further without having a pair in my living room.
I think there's something to the "narrow vertical directivity"; especially if you have the usual non-coaxial nulls, so you really want to hear as little of those bad reflections as possible.

I wonder if reduced vertical reflections are a way of "faking" a larger room in that dimension, because we can hear where the ceiling is due to those reflections. I think this is also a big part of the unique sound that Magnepans and other panel speakers with hyper-narrow vertical directivity have, despite their many other flaws. They make the vertical dimension seem larger than it really is. However, there's at least one study I recall from Toole's book showing that the absence of a floor reflection sounds unnatural, so if you took this to extremes it might not be pleasant anymore.

That said, IME this narrow vertical directivity effect doesn't sound good or natural with all music. It depends if it's something that you expect to sound like it was recorded in a very large space or not. And you can't adjust or turn it off, which is a problem.

At the end of the day multi-channel w/height channels is capable of producing the same false reflections only it can do them differently for every piece of music, so I do think that's the real solution. Relying on a fixed dispersion pattern to bounce reflections off boundaries will sometimes produce suboptimal results. As a result, I doubt there is any actual optimal dispersion pattern for stereo at least. It's all just compromises.
 
This isn't a settled issue from a scientific point of view. All I can do is rely on personal experience, particularly with my volume-compensated switching preamp.
Speakers with wider vertical dispersion than mine, but narrower horizontal dispersion, consistently sound "squished" vertically even though that's counter-intuitive. As for the new Ascend, I can't comment further without having a pair in my living room.

Agreed but so far I've only found evidence that shows vertical reflections are beneficial, even when they are timbrally distorted and these were done blind so no bias was present. Not sure how to explain your experience with speakers sounding squished vertically. I recently moved from a small room with 8 foot ceilings to a larger room with 11' ceilings and was worried my LS50 would sound too small in the bigger room but I was pleasantly surprised that they actually sounded bigger which is also counter-intuitive.

I think there's something to the "narrow vertical directivity"; especially if you have the usual non-coaxial nulls, so you really want to hear as little of those bad reflections as possible.

I wonder if reduced vertical reflections are a way of "faking" a larger room in that dimension, because we can hear where the ceiling is due to those reflections. I think this is also a big part of the unique sound that Magnepans and other panel speakers with hyper-narrow vertical directivity have, despite their many other flaws. They make the vertical dimension seem larger than it really is. However, there's at least one study I recall from Toole's book showing that the absence of a floor reflection sounds unnatural, so if you took this to extremes it might not be pleasant anymore.

That said, IME this narrow vertical directivity effect doesn't sound good or natural with all music. It depends if it's something that you expect to sound like it was recorded in a very large space or not. And you can't adjust or turn it off, which is a problem.

At the end of the day multi-channel w/height channels is capable of producing the same false reflections only it can do them differently for every piece of music, so I do think that's the real solution. Relying on a fixed dispersion pattern to bounce reflections off boundaries will sometimes produce suboptimal results. As a result, I doubt there is any actual optimal dispersion pattern for stereo at least. It's all just compromises.

I know that sounds logical but as the study that I posted showed, even ceiling reflections that were timbrally distorted were still preferred over no ceiling reflection. Toole's observation regarding the absence of the floor reflection reinforces my belief that we should want our speakers to produce sounds as close to real sounds as possible, we shouldn't be limiting them in any plane but rather trying to approximate real sounds as closely as possible, hence why I prefer coaxial speakers.
 
"Agreed but so far I've only found evidence that shows vertical reflections are beneficial, even when they are timbrally distorted and these were done blind so no bias was present. Not sure how to explain your experience with speakers sounding squished vertically. I recently moved from a small room with 8 foot ceilings to a larger room with 11' ceilings and was worried my LS50 would sound too small in the bigger room but I was pleasantly surprised that they actually sounded bigger which is also counter-intuitive."

Which LS50's do you have?
 
I know that sounds logical but as the study that I posted showed, even ceiling reflections that were timbrally distorted were still preferred over no ceiling reflection. Toole's observation regarding the absence of the floor reflection reinforces my belief that we should want our speakers to produce sounds as close to real sounds as possible, we shouldn't be limiting them in any plane but rather trying to approximate real sounds as closely as possible, hence why I prefer coaxial speakers.
I'll have to read the study sometime but it doesn't seem to me that "no vertical reflections sounds bad" is equivalent to "we shouldn't try to limit them". We already know that completely eliminating most reflections sounds pretty bad from research listening in anechoic chambers, yet a maximally reflective room doesn't sound good either.
 
I'll have to read the study sometime but it doesn't seem to me that "no vertical reflections sounds bad" is equivalent to "we shouldn't try to limit them". We already know that completely eliminating most reflections sounds pretty bad from research listening in anechoic chambers, yet a maximally reflective room doesn't sound good either.
Agreed, no one is suggesting that vertical reflections should be abolished, but, tying this back to my question above, how much limiting is then desirable?

We can all agree that many people prefer wide dispersion because the "right" amount of reflections in a given room contributes to a sense of spaciousness, realism, and a larger soundstage. I think that most of us can also agree that in a room that's very small, wide dispersion could quickly overwhelm the direct sound with reflections, which is not what we want.

Thus, my question is, is an 8ft wide room "too small" to be an ideal home for speakers with wide horizontal dispersion? If the answer is yes, then wouldn't also a domestic room with a typical 8ft ceiling height also be too small for a speaker with similar levels of vertical dispersion? Perhaps the fact that most rooms are wider than they are high is why broad horizontal radiation and limited vertical sounds better to some.

It would be interesting to see how much of the "magic" of speakers such as the BMR or Sierra-2EX / ribbon towers would be maintained when placed in a room with high ceilings.
 
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Long time reader, first time poster. I have had the SIERRA-LX for about two weeks now as well as many other standmounts in the past:
PMC TB2
Wharfedale Diamond 9.1
Merlin TSM- MMI
Fritz Carbon 7
Dynaudio Focus 110
Dynaudio Focus 160
Acsend Audio Sierra 1
Acsend Audio Sierra 1 Nrt
Harbeth P3ESR
Jeff bagby continuum
Jeff bagby Picolo
The Carrera Speaker Kit – by Paul Carmody
FRITZ CARRERA (With Transducer Labs Tweeter)
Dynaudio Special 40's
FRITZ CARBON 7 SE Mk 2
KEF R3
Genelec 8010A
Revel performa3 m106
Genelec 8040b
Adam speakers a5x
and now the
Genelec 8020D (and sub)
SIERRA-LX.

I hope to post a long write up in the next two weeks. Currently I am in sink with Amir's thought process on Dacs and most amps and I am very happy to save money in that category. As far as the Revel Perfroma 3 M106 goes I could not ship them back to crutchfield fast enough after having them side by side with the Sierra-LX.

To date my fabvorite speakers are:
Merlin TSM- MMI
FRITZ CARRERA (With Transducer Labs Tweeter)
SIERRA-LX

For Music all types:
FRITZ CARRERA (With Transducer Labs Tweeter)
SIERRA-LX

Vocals Realistic Tontality:
Merlin TSM- MMI
FRITZ CARRERA (With Transducer Labs Tweeter)

Home theatre:
Merlin TSM- MMI (The speed of this speaker is really impressive)
Genelec 8040b (Tonality is similar to Merlins but transient response is much slower)
SIERRA-LX

Magical:
Fritz Carbon 7

I am putting together a long write up and hope to post more soon as I know i will get rosted for this.
Currently I am really enjoying the Sierra-LX, I would say it has the best metal tweeter I have heard (Outside of berylium) and the best Bass from a small standmoint. Midrange is really enjoyable for music.
 
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Subjective impressions are just that: impressions. They are not data. Data are numerical facts used in the calculation of mathematical problems.
Are you certain this is correct?

I always thought data was really just a piece of information.
Especially as it relates to statistics, which uses what it gathers(data) to subject to analysis and (hopefully) generate an expression of probability.

Data also relates to philosophy and just generally to quality of conversation as well, as in giving someone enough information to drive to your house without getting lost. It doesn't have to be mathematical, as I understand it.

Anyway data is still data even if the quality is low. One just has to know that as such and state it clearly. 'This is low quality data', 'this is high quality data', ect.
If I say these were my sighted impressions that can be easily be translated into multiple data points for multiple purposes.
Sighted testing for most people creates issues by adding known complexity and known interferences, not because it is not 'data'. I emphasize known, as it takes some time (often much time)to asses issues and hone the process so that data is affected by less distraction, noise and outright issues.

It took some time and effort and now with speakers and audio equipment it has been shown that double blind(and regular blind) testing creates more reliable data, in some cases much more reliable. It should be noted that in some cases the specific pieces of data should be and will be outliers and will not be best understood when grouped but rather best understood in isolation. Some examples --- there will be listeners who are unbiased and neutral enough that sighted or blind the results are the same, even if very few, even if rare @1/100,000. There will also be listeners who are so inconsistent that sighted or blind that data has no value at all, (and actually from my understanding this extra inconsistency issue has been found to be fairly common.)

In any case most of what happens really is all data that informs. But where you draw the line on the 'quality', of it is certainly important.

I ask my girlfriends son 'did you wash you hands'. He answers yes. Now mind you I know the water was running for maybe 2 seconds. I say wash them again, use plenty of soap and count to 15 slowly. Two different opinions of the quality required for one to objectively say that kid washed his hands. To find out if my version of his hand washing is meaningfully better than his would take some real work, and most certainly context. Are we taking about averaging out all handwashing one does over the course of a year, or are we taking about unique washing after getting lots of drying paint or mud all over them or maybe just washing a splash of apple juice off a finger tip.

With these Audio gear impressions, I personally enjoy them as part of the ASR content canon.
As a hobbyist ultimately looking to enjoy myself, I want to talk with folks about experiences we have, not just what our microphones generate. I think it is understood here by a great many that our general sighted impressions are flawed in the context of ultimate accuracy. I think many find they are not flawed in context of ultimate enjoyment. I see zero point in accurate audio reproduction without joy on the journey.
That said I do take note of whether the poster seems to be generally science and reason forward vs maybe someone getting hyped at the '4db of added 20hrz bass their new Audioquest power cable & riser set added to their 4" full-range drivers.
 
@Dennis Murphy I have the originals. Just recently bought the Metas to compare with EQ and they sounded identical after EQ so I sent them back.
Very interesting. I actually preferred the originals if there's no EQ in play. The new ones have a dip in the lower highs that takes the life out of orchestral music.
 
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