Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[March Audio]

With all due respect you keep putting straw points in people's mouth to argue.

The warranty determination for ANY manufacturer is based on the expected (mean) reliability of their equipment (and hence the expected cost of repair/replacement) as well as competitive edge for increased sales if and when necessary as part of their pricing model (the marketing decision). Those aren't independent of each other.

A long warranty does not imply that the units will never fail or even that none of them will fail within the warranty period. It just means they have a calculated expectation that not too many will fail within warranty period to offset any increase in sales they will get from offering a longer warranty including good will.

Every manufacturer does this whether it is 2 years, 5 years or 20 years. So your questions are meaningless straw arguments.

Didn't I read somewhere that you had increased the warranty period for your products based on their field reliability. That is a marketing decision as well as a decision based on their reliability. Bryston does the same. They would be foolish to offer a 20 year warranty if too many of their units would keep failing within the 20 years. Doesn't mean none of the their units will fail.

I think you know all of the above because that is what you do in your business, so I don't get this silly arguing.

Of course we look at the likelyhood of failures and potential costs. This may also include (for Bryston) the likely hood of an old amp being returned for repair under warranty by a 3rd or 4th owner. Just think about that for a minute and how it may influence Brystons position. Also think about how much Bryston charge in the first place for good but often unexceptional products. Also how many other high quality manufactures of reliable products think its a good policy.

My point was simply that a 20 year warranty is not an inherent indication of its long term reliability, there are other factors in play. A 20 year warranty is primarily marketing to assist the initial sale of an expensive product. Bryston havent found a magic bullet that makes their products inherently more reliable than anyone elses. None of this is a straw man. The straw man was Johns implication that this is just down to a reliability decision, thats just naïve.

 

[PeteL]

Sorry, but I disagree.

Given the manufacturer's rated lifetime, and the actual operating conditions of the capacitors in question, one can predict the mean lifetime of the capacitors in these Hypex modules. That's not a matter of opinion.

What is a matter of opinion is what the mean lifetime should be. @restorer-john thinks that, for a TOTL product, like the one that is the subject of this thread, the mean lifetime should be 50 years or more. @March Audio thinks it perfectly reasonable for the mean lifetime to be much shorter.

Personally, I'm sympathetic to the latter point-of-view. Whereas Class AB is pretty mature, the technology of Class D is still advancing. 10 years from now, I expect to be able to replace the Hypex amplifier that I currently own with a much superior unit for a price smaller than Apollon would charge today for upgrading the capacitors on the Hypex amplifiers they sell.

But your opinion could differ on this ...

Personally, my opinion on the matter is that those caps are not a deal breaker for me, they are « probably » adequate for the price I paid, I don’t feel I own a TOTL product, I feel I own a cost conscious product that have a good cost/performance ratio. On the other end, there is no doubt in my mind that the choice of cap, IS a compromise to reach a price goal. I have no doubt in my mind that if the better ones would have been the same price, they would have put them in, like on the Purifi modules. That they know that statistically, they where, by doing so, increasing the odds of failing faster, now as you say, what´s faster, 10 20 30 years WE DON’t KNOW. But it IS a business decision, that came with a compromise, not « Let’s choose the very best component for the job, and hey! how lucky, the very best also happen to be. the cheapest« Can we at least all agree that this is not how they picked their caps? Also, NCore has been out for ten years, I see no sign of them being obsolete. An amp is an amp. if a module fail in 15 years, I’ll have it repaired, It may have moved to a secondary system, or if I moved to something else, I will maybe have sold it or loaned to a friend/family, but I expect it to be going. I also am one of the apparently very few that had a nc500 module fail on me. I didn’t diagnose, I swapped, I assume not the caps, but it did fail after a year

 

[Vasr]

Of course we look at potential costs of failures, including the likely hood of an old amp being return for service by a 3rd or 4 th owner. Just think about it for a minute.

So if Bryston has a 20 year transferable warranty with no chance of making money in service for 20 years, do you think it is not based on their expectation of its longevity (even if in addition to other factors)? You think about it before replying.

My point was simply that a 20 year warranty is not an inherent indication of its long term reliability, there are other factors in play.

You asked the strawman question if Bryston didn't make that decision based only on marketing. This is BS. As if a longer expected reliability had no correlation with it which is what you were implying. The factors include expected long term reliability. Nothing John said contradicts that.

I know you like having the last word on everything so I will let you have that. I am done.

I have to say, you really aren't helping your brand reputation with this. John has nothing to lose. You do.

 

[March Audio]

So if Bryston has a 20 year transferable warranty with no chance of making money in service for 20 years, do you think it is not based on their expectation of its longevity (even if in addition to other factors)? You think about it before replying.



You asked the strawman question if Bryston didn't make that decision based only on marketing. This is BS. As if a longer expected reliability had no correlation with it which is what you were implying. The factors include expected long term reliability. Nothing John said contradicts that.

I know you like having the last word on everything so I will let you have that. I am done.

I have to say, you really aren't helping your brand reputation with this. John has nothing to lose. You do.

I have already answered it. See above.

My brand reputation is based on a no bullshit and honest approach, for which my customers frequently commend me for.

Nothing I have said in this thread indicates we expect our products to have a short unreliable life, quite the contrary in fact. It will be commensurate with any other similar domestic electronic products.

What I wont put up with is BS from the likes of John that if left unchallenged could misinform readers about mine or other manufacturers who utilize Hypex products in their designs. That misinformed BS is potentially damaging for us and those other manufacturers. If thats an agenda, then so be it.

 

[BDWoody]

I have no agenda other than the truth, because I'm not selling a thing. I want buyers of HiFi to have it last for decades. Have it handed to their kids like the ASR member who just posted about his father's Yamaha A-1 amplifier bought in 1980 which he inherited after his father died. That is what long term reliability is about, Alan.

Put pressure on Hypex to use better components. That is what a responsible manufacturer would do.

Thanks John, I am one who appreciates the input from someone with your unique experience.

I'd love to see the look of panic on a modern amp designer's face if he was told he needed to design a 200wpc amp that would carry a 20 year warranty.

I think it's great that I can buy a 15 year old Bryston that still has 5 years on the warranty. My old 5 channel 9BSST is still going great... I'd buy another if I needed one.

 

[fredoamigo]

Personally, I am more inclined to trust the repairer than the salesman on reliability advice ...


I would be much more reassured to know that the audio industry uses high quality components on the electronics, rather than repairing a dent on the dac measurements that no one knows if it is audible ...

to close this debate, it would be good to create a thread (poll) on ASR ...

the title would be "have you experienced failures with your electronics?

if yes, what was the cause ?
1/ capacitor ?

2/ other ?
on what type of devices ?

amplifier ?

other ?

 

[March Audio]

Thanks John, I am one who appreciates the input from someone with your unique experience.

I'd love to see the look of panic on a modern amp designer's face if he was told he needed to design a 200wpc amp that would carry a 20 year warranty.

I think it's great that I can buy a 15 year old Bryston that still has 5 years on the warranty. My old 5 channel 9BSST is still going great... I'd buy another if I needed one.

...and thats one of the major points that has been made, the experience is unique to him and not a wider indication of anything.

There would be no panic, you are making the mistake of assuming that Bryston products are inherently more reliable than those of the 99% of other manufactures that dont offer a 20 year warranty.

Think about it a different way. A Bryston 2.5b is a moderate performing 135 watt stereo power amp. A solid performer but nothing to write home about.
In Australia it costs $7000.

Now if you were to pay $7000 for our better performing P252 (about $1150 AUD) I wouldnt hesitate to give you a 25 year warranty.

I think you have just made my point about marketing.

 

[March Audio]

Personally, I am more inclined to trust the repairer than the salesman on reliability advice ...

I would be much more reassured that the audio industry uses top quality components on the electronics, rather than making a bump on the dac measurements that nobody knows if it's audible ?...


to close this debate, it would be good to create a thread (poll) on ASR ...

the title would be "have you experienced failures with your electronics?

if yes, what was the cause ?
1/ capacitor ?

2/ other ?
on what type of devices ?

amplifier ?

other ?

Its not about trust, its about evidence and facts. Johns personal experience and opinion isnt evidence of anything wider.

Here is the opinion of another audio repairer from earlier in the thread.

As a veteran of the audio repair business, I feel qualified to remind everyone involved in the endless cap quality debate that repair folks see only a small fraction of the gear in use, and for every significant failure due to a cap or caps going bad, there may well be hundreds or even thousands of the same model that provide decades of trouble-free service with exactly the same cap or caps. I'm reminded of the American TV shrink, "Doctor Drew," who sees dire danger in marijuana use -- which make sense from his point of view, because as a specialist in treating folks with substance-related problems, he sees a vastly disproportionate number of people for whom marijuana use is seriously problematic even if for the most part folks who so indulge are probably no more dysfunctional than their counterparts who drink a beer or a martini when they get home from work. Moreover, the repair tech generally doesn't know how the gear s/he rescues has been (ab)used -- e.g. whether it's been left powered up 24/7/365 and/or tightly stacked with other gear resulting in significantly higher operating temperatures.

 

[BDWoody]

John I have asked the mods to talk to you about your deliberate on going provocation...

That's just sad, and I hope they laugh like the rest of us.

As a manufacturer who gets a free marketing ride on this forum, I'd think you'd have a better way to deal with another very senior and respected member than trying to have him shushed.

At least I know who I won't buy anything from.

 

[March Audio]

That's just sad, and I hope they laugh like the rest of us.

As a manufacturer who gets a free marketing ride on this forum, I'd think you'd have a better way to deal with another very senior and respected member than trying to have him shushed.

At least I know who I won't buy anything from.

There has been no attempt to silence him. I have just repeatedly asked him to support his claims with some evidence. To actually engage in a reasoned debate.

Just as anyone here would expect someone who made subjective commentary on a products sound to justify it with some scientific evidence. Not just keeping stating an unjustified opinion.

He has not done so and just relentlessly repeated his claims without basis and completely ignoring any points that have been made. This is not what this forum is about and it is disruptive. He has basically been saying that Hypex products are unreliable and short lived without one shred of evidence to support it. To keep on arguing to that end is clearly a deliberate provocation and pretty much in line with his previous railing against all things class D.

So you find that sort of behaviour acceptable?

Regarding a free marketing ride I think you will find very few of my posts and contributions actually refer to our products. I contribute widely in all areas.

 

[thanhh]

I think it comes down to mindset of consumers 20 years ago and now.
Older generations would buy somethings that lasted for a lifetime, they didn’t mind paying a bit extra for quality.
Younger generation, they are willing to pay nearly $2000 for an iPhone that will need replacing next 1 year or 2. They KNOW that technology advances in a rate that is much faster than 10 years ago.
To get an amplifier that sounds as good as state of the art and costs less than 2 weeks of average wages is unheard of 20 years ago. So I agree with Hypex ways of manufacturing. Good enough and last just long enoug makes perfectly senses these days. I’m happy enough if my Hypex amp lasts more than 5 years.
Hope my broken English makes senses.

 

[PierreV]

In general terms, I would also trust the repairman above the salesman. But isn't the point moot in the current discussion?

On the practical and cost vs benefits side, I have been totally convinced by Hypex modules. I guess the same goes for Purifi modules (which I don't own)

Will they fail? Sure, like everything else. But while the boards themselves don't seem easy/convenient to repair, they appear to be easily swappable and almost a de facto standard these days. Repairing an old-style amplifier requires diagnosis (if possible), technician time, possibly unavailable spares, etc

If we are honest with ourselves, except in the very rare cases the failure is minor and immediately identifiable (say fuses, potentiometers, a single blown cap) or the device is valuable on the second-hand market, the decision to repair is (unfortunately for the planet, but that is another story) is mostly an emotional one. In the long run, I don't see myself developing an emotional relationship with Hypex modules based amplifiers. Even with the Apollon ones, which seem, by far, the most carefully build ones. Those are just practical solutions to the amplification in semi-fancy boxes. Just standard tools.

Also, in my very limited understanding of capacitor reliability issues, I would be more worried about multi-channel amplifiers, packing several modules in a very tight appliance that will probably be sub-optimally ventilated in many cases. Apparently, some of the builders of multi-channel amplifiers use other power supplies.

 

[March Audio]

I think it comes down to mindset of consumers 20 years ago and now.
Older generations would buy somethings that lasted for a lifetime, they didn’t mind paying a bit extra for quality.
Younger generation, they are willing to pay nearly $2000 for an iPhone that will need replacing next 1 year or 2. They KNOW that technology advances in a rate that is much faster than 10 years ago.
To get an amplifier that sounds as good as state of the art and costs less than 2 weeks of average wages is unheard of 20 years ago. So I agree with Hypex ways of manufacturing. Good enough and last just long enoug makes perfectly senses these days. I’m happy enough if my Hypex amp lasts more than 5 years.
Hope my broken English makes senses.

Certainly does make sense. This is a point I made earlier in the thread. Making no comment on the rights and wrongs of the situation, does a hifi product that lasts 30 years make any sense to the market today? As you say technology is advancing so quickly now that products can become obsolete in a matter of 5 to 10 years.

 

[PierreV]

Regarding a free marketing ride I think you will find very few of my posts and contributions actually refer to our products. I contribute widely in all areas.

Yes, indeed, and we plebs thank you for that. Just as we thank John for his many useful contributions as well.
Which is why I would assume many of us are a bit sad to see you both venting and drying and are afraid of a catastrophic failure

 

[March Audio]

Yes, indeed, and we plebs thank you for that. Just as we thank John for his many useful contributions as well.
Which is why I would assume many of us are a bit sad to see you both venting and drying and are afraid of a catastrophic failure

I think its sad too. I actually have a lot of respect for John even though we have often had "strong" debates and disagree on many things.

However in this case I firmly believe that its not reasonable for him to make these unjustified statements. His thinking is faulty for all the reasons previously explained, but he wont engage in any reasoned debate about it. He just ignores any reasonable countering point and repeats. His statements clearly imply - well its not just implied, its pretty much stated - an inherent unreliability in our products. Not just our products, Apollon, Nord, NAD, ATI, Bel Canto and many, many others - major manufacturers included. It should be fairly obvious to everyone why I dont find that acceptable and not unreasonably so.

He needs to justify that assertion. To, frankly, put up or shut up.

 

[restorer-john]

...and are afraid of a catastrophic failure...

No catastrophic failure is likely, I have plenty of capacity (quality capacity) for any amount of long term ripple, and I promise I won't get too hot under the collar and vent prematurely. (capacitor jokes).

 

[Colonel7]

I'm generally not a fan of over engineering and understand the decision behind these caps. And I appreciate the discussion surrounding them and the types and failure modes. Apollon did a really nice job and has been very forthcoming and I applaud them for it.

On the failure of hypex Ncore boards, seems to me it's way too early to tell. A company (correction: product) that's been around only 10 years (correction 12) with a somewhat niche but great performing product? I'd need to see sales #s by years, but I'd be willing to bet the lions share are less than 5 years old and maybe less. That said, if I'm on the market again for an amp in the next couple years, based on price and performance it'd be Hypex and I wouldn't hesitate to buy it

 

[March Audio]

I'm generally not a fan of over engineering and understand the decision behind these caps. And I appreciate the discussion surrounding them and the types and failure modes. Apollon did a really nice job and has been very forthcoming and I applaud them for it.

On the failure of hypex boards, seems to me it's way too early to tell. A company that's been around only 10 years with a somewhat niche but great performing product? I'd need to see sales #s by years, but I'd be willing to bet the lions share are less than 5 years old and maybe less. That said, if I'm on the market again for an amp in the next couple years, based on price and performance it'd be Hypex and I wouldn't hesitate to buy it

The Apollon amp is great.

Hypex have been around a lot longer than 10years, the UCD rage of class D amps have been around for 15 years and its the ncore that have been around for 10 years. Thing is its not really niche, they have been used by many major manufacturers in many products, and of course us smaller ones.

 

[Thomas savage]

@March Audio your Bristolian charm is not working on our outback rugged @restorer-john ..

This seems to be a long running saga between you both , I suggest you sort it out behind closed doors or put one another on ignore. One of you has more at steak than the other !

I'm not qualified to comment on the technical issues in dispute but I will say it's obvious hypex have downgraded some of their parts recently and that suggests they are ramping up manufacturing and looking to get into markets where penny pinching is necessary or maybe the business manager's has paid a visit lol .

Nothing lasts forever! Things are more disposal than they used to be but also cheaper ...

That's life these days .

 

[fredoamigo]

for an amp only it is unlikely that this is a problem and especially with the excellent work of implementation of company as apollon .

but where I wonder and I find that this policy of saving ends of strings about Chinese capacitor may cause problems is in the case of integrated application in the speakers ? I had the Kii Three at home and I can tell you that it heats well anyway. What would you say if you knew that there are cheap chinese capacitors inside 12000 usd speakers ? would you be quiet ?? or would you accept that a period of 10 years with no breakdowns is acceptable and that it would be normal to repair later?
ps / I looked at the GENELEC they use rubycon cap .