Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[Colonel7]

The Apollon amp is great.

Hypex have been around a lot longer than 10years, the UCD rage of class D amps have been around for 15 years and its the ncore that have been around for 10 years. Thing is its not really niche, they have been used by many major manufacturers in many products, and of course us smaller ones.

Thanks for the correction. I was thinking Ncore and mixing it up with the manufacturer. NCore is about 12 years. Edited above post for correction

 

[PeteL]

In general terms, I would also trust the repairman above the salesman. But isn't the point moot in the current discussion?

On the practical and cost vs benefits side, I have been totally convinced by Hypex modules. I guess the same goes for Purifi modules (which I don't own)

Will they fail? Sure, like everything else. But while the boards themselves don't seem easy/convenient to repair, they appear to be easily swappable and almost a de facto standard these days. Repairing an old-style amplifier requires diagnosis (if possible), technician time, possibly unavailable spares, etc

If we are honest with ourselves, except in the very rare cases the failure is minor and immediately identifiable (say fuses, potentiometers, a single blown cap) or the device is valuable on the second-hand market, the decision to repair is (unfortunately for the planet, but that is another story) is mostly an emotional one. In the long run, I don't see myself developing an emotional relationship with Hypex modules based amplifiers. Even with the Apollon ones, which seem, by far, the most carefully build ones. Those are just practical solutions to the amplification in semi-fancy boxes. Just standard tools.

Also, in my very limited understanding of capacitor reliability issues, I would be more worried about multi-channel amplifiers, packing several modules in a very tight appliance that will probably be sub-optimally ventilated in many cases. Apparently, some of the builders of multi-channel amplifiers use other power supplies.

That’s the point tough, now most people would just replace the module, or the psu wich is far from a cheap repair, but we don’t know if it will be possible in ten years, if Hypex will still carry those modules , and to me I have to say it’s quite scary your quote « easy swap-a de facto standard these days » I mean can’t we be outraged a bit by that, where it is better to dispose of it than to repair it and accept it as modernity? and that’s what I did myself, but don’t thing that should be. This is a damned power amp, not a cell phone and then when a amp manufacturer @March Audio goes to say that technology become obsolete in 5 to 10 years, And that it doesn’t make sense to have an amp last 30 years, well sorry sir but you can’t say after stating something like that that your beef with people asking for more premium part is based on facts, if it’s your line of thinking.... No power amps should be obsolete in 10 years that’s nonsense, it accomplish exactly the same function decade after decade after decade....

 

[DS23MAN]

Hypex still sells their first UCD module in a deluxe version:

https://www.diyclassd.com/product/ucd180hg-with-hxr/5

Almost 20 years in production!

 

[March Audio]

@March Audio your Bristolian charm is not working on our outback rugged @restorer-john ..

This seems to be a long running saga between you both , I suggest you sort it out behind closed doors or put one another on ignore. One of you has more at steak than the other !

I'm not qualified to comment on the technical issues in dispute but I will say it's obvious hypex have downgraded some of their parts recently and that suggests they are ramping up manufacturing and looking to get into markets where penny pinching is necessary or maybe the business manager's has paid a visit lol .

Nothing lasts forever! Things are more disposal than they used to be but also cheaper ...

That's life these days .

With respect Thomas, if he (or anyone else) makes inaccurate unsupportable statements I will ALWAYS challenge it.

Last week according to John it was class ii products are dangerous Despite all of us having dozens of products of this type for decades and none of us getting electrocuted.

This is supposed to be a science forum not Whats Best Forum.

Also, sorry but I also have to correct you. Hypex have not recently downgraded their components.

See below, all delivered to me in the past few weeks. All with manufacturing dates in the past few months. They are Suscon 105 deg c 3000 hour rated caps, as they have been for some considerable time.

 

[March Audio]

That’s the point tough, now most people would just replace the module, or the psu wich is far from a cheap repair, but we don’t know if it will be possible in ten years, if Hypex will still carry those modules , and to me I have to say it’s quite scary your quote « easy swap-a de facto standard these days » I mean can’t we be outraged a bit by that, where it is better to dispose of it than to repair it and accept it as modernity? and that’s what I did myself, but don’t thing that should be. This is a damned power amp, not a cell phone and then when a amp manufacturer @March Audio goes to say that technology become obsolete in 5 to 10 years, And that it doesn’t make sense to have an amp last 30 years, well sorry sir but you can’t say after stating something like that that your beef with people asking for more premium part is based on facts, if it’s your line of thinking.... No power amps should be obsolete in 10 years that’s nonsense, it accomplish exactly the same function decade after decade after decade....

No a power amp wont be obsolete in 10 years pe se, well its basic function wont. It was a more generalised statement not specific. However, you need to think in terms of the way products are changing, and consumer requirements are changing. The technology drives the consumer and the consumer drives the technology.

We have got to the stage where the wider market doesnt necessarily want a "traditional" hifi system with large boxes. Its looking towards small, efficient products, probably with combined functions. Technology now allows this with little or maybe no penalty in quality. It will continue to progress in this direction.

A record deck isnt obsolete in the fact that it still plays music. Same with CD. Yet many have now moved on to media-less formats stored on drives and now on to streaming. This development and change will continue at a faster and faster rate, we probably can't envisage or guess what we will be doing in 10 years. Tonight I watched a film streamed over a mobile broadband service in pristine UHD quality. Was this imaginable 10 or even 5 years ago?

So from the wider consumer perspective does it make sense to pay $7000 for an amp with a 20 year warranty that is allegedly more reliable, or $1200 for one with a 3 year wsrranty that in reality will last as long (or extremely close to). This, when there is a high probability you will have moved onto something else with different functionality and or form factor long before the product has expired or failed.

 

[Jinjuku]

Should we let John in on the like thing?

Well ther is no dislike button...

 

[DS23MAN]

I just changed my Avatar because this thread is going nowhere.....

To clarify my position, I am an external consultant at Hypex for several years and do a lot of beta testing on their products.

Small example, the first two Fusion plate amps ( 2017) ever made on my desk:

This was the first version with the ADAU1701 dsp, later it was changed to the ADAU1450 on my (strong) advice.

The problem in this discussion is mainly the reliabity of Suscon cap's, well I can't find any proof on the net they are shit. Hypex is pooping out amp modules and smps modules in such quantaties that a problem would show directly. To be frankly, if you produce more than 100.000 modules a year and 1 person can keep up the warranty claims ( and failure research) (and repair)......

 

[amirm]

We have got to the stage where the wider market doesnt necessarily want a "traditional" hifi system with large boxes.

The wider market has no interest in these types of products and at these prices. So let's not get into that.

 

[amirm]

The problem in this discussion is mainly the reliabity of Suscon cap's, well I can't find any proof on the net they are shit. Hypex is pooping out amp modules and smps modules in such quantaties that a problem would show directly. To be frankly, if you produce more than 100.000 modules a year and 1 person can keep up the warranty claims ( and failure research) (and repair)......

We are not worried about reliability during warranty period. We are worried about the period after that. If Hypex had some accelerated life testing, we would have something to chew on. I suspect they are not nearly big enough to conduct such tests.

When I was at Sony, they would take random products out of assembly line and put them in room with elevated temps to find failure rates. And failure points. Without such measures, they are hoping the devices last but have no way of knowing.

 

[andreasmaaan]

This was the first version with the ADAU1701 dsp, later it was changed to the ADAU1450 on my (strong) advice.

That's very interesting info, thanks!

 

[amirm]

The problem in this discussion is mainly the reliabity of Suscon cap's, well I can't find any proof on the net they are shit.

Reliability is not about "proof" but statistics. Best statistics on capacitors comes from computer and TV domain where capacitor failures are quite common. And volumes large enough to build some data on. Here is Tom's hardware article by their power supply reviewer: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supplies-101,4193-5.html

There is actually an entire forum dedicated to capacitor failures called badcaps. https://www.badcaps.net/forum/

There, you will find many real experiences with people replacing caps and specifics of where they are used, etc.

 

[DonH56]

I would expect any commercial electronics component manufacturer of any reasonable size to do at least some basic HTOL tests. You can buy a used emp chamber pretty cheap and throw some amps in it for a month and a half or so (1000 hours) to see where you stand. I wouldn't expect Alan to do so (would rely on the component vendors' testing), would not be surprised to hear John has one sitting around the back room, but would expect Hypex to have done a significant amount of life testing on their modules.

Class D amps and SMPS' have come a long way but there are still those who don't really understand how much more stress they can put on decoupling and coupling capacitors. There are plenty of horror stories out there, and websites devoted to bad caps, but surely Hypex is aware and monitoring the situation? Lifetime, MTBF and all that jazz is basic science, known for decades, and although statistical is not speculative.

Whatever - Don

Edit: Amir beat me to it, natch!

 

[DS23MAN]

We are not worried about reliability during warranty period. We are worried about the period after that. If Hypex had some accelerated life testing, we would have something to chew on. I suspect they are not nearly big enough to conduct such tests.

When I was at Sony, they would take random products out of assembly line and put them in room with elevated temps to find failure rates. And failure points. Without such measures, they are hoping the devices last but have no way of knowing.

Actually Hypex does accelerated life testing for there PA customers. And yes there are Suscon caps in it.

 

[amirm]

Actually Hypex does accelerated life testing for there PA customers. And yes there are Suscon caps in it.

And the results of that testing is.....? What percentage failed? What were the failure points?

Without this data, we have our own judgements to rely on. This was my point.

 

[DS23MAN]

Reliability is not about "proof" but statistics. Best statistics on capacitors comes from computer and TV domain where capacitor failures are quite common. And volumes large enough to build some data on. Here is Tom's hardware article by their power supply reviewer: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supplies-101,4193-5.html

View attachment 89380

There is actually an entire forum dedicated to capacitor failures called badcaps. https://www.badcaps.net/forum/

There, you will find many real experiences with people replacing caps and specifics of where they are used, etc.

Can you give me an example outside this hysteric group of people

And the results of that testing is.....? What percentage failed? What were the failure points?

Without this data, we have our own judgements to rely on. This was my point.

The Cap's are not a problem....

 

[amirm]

What I wont put up with is BS from the likes of John that if left unchallenged could misinform readers about mine or other manufacturers who utilize Hypex products in their designs. That misinformed BS is potentially damaging for us and those other manufacturers. If thats an agenda, then so be it.

By your standard consumer could never talk about any potential reliability issues in any products.

I was shopping a few years ago for a cargo van for work. Looked at Ford Transit. Did some research and saw people raising concerns about a flexible coupler used to reduce engine vibration transmission to the chassis. Posters contented that this would be a failure point. Some protested like you saying the same was used in BMW cars and there were no issues with them.

Fast forward a few days later and I am at the dealer looking at their new Transits. I see this odd sticker on a bunch of these saying "not to be sold." I go and do some research and find this:

As a result, Ford had instructed their dealers to not sell any new products on the lot until they had fixed this. And due to shortage of parts, they could not do this repair quickly.

Bottom line, we have the wisdom of repair and engineering community on what could be weak points in a design. Absence of any reliability data from the manufacturer available to us, this is all we have to go by. Company should be aware that in this day and age, such analysis will occur. And some sales lost as a result of it. They can either use better quality parts, or present us hard data to show the current parts are fine. Better yet, provide a warranty that this part will not be a failure point for a much longer period than the standard warranty. Emission control devices in cars in US have such extended warranty for example (by law I believe).

In no way is it proper to ask for such discussions to not occur. We as a forum are a consumer protection entity, not manufacturer. Any beef you have with us in this regard, is a beef you have with our entire mission.

Personally I remember being shocked the first time I did a teardown on Hypex amp (NC400) and finding these lower grade caps. I consider these amps the best of the best in technical performance. I like to see best of the best in part selection. While it is easy for us to see choices made in capacitors, what have they done in selection of others?

 

[amirm]

The Cap's are not a problem....

What was? You have seen the results of such tests?

 

[DS23MAN]

What was? You have seen the results of such tests?

There where no problems at all.

 

[DS23MAN]

By your standard consumer could never talk about any potential reliability issues in any products.

I was shopping a few years ago for a cargo van for work. Looked at Ford Transit. Did some research and saw people raising concerns about a flexible coupler used to reduce engine vibration transmission to the chassis. Posters contented that this would be a failure point. Some protested like you saying the same was used in BMW cars and there were no issues with them.

Fast forward a few days later and I am at the dealer looking at their new Transits. I see this odd sticker on a bunch of these saying "not to be sold." I go and do some research and find this:

View attachment 89382

As a result, Ford had instructed their dealers to not sell any new products on the lot until they had fixed this. And due to shortage of parts, they could not do this repair quickly.

Bottom line, we have the wisdom of repair and engineering community on what could be weak points in a design. Absence of any reliability data from the manufacturer available to us, this is all we have to go by. Company should be aware that in this day and age, such analysis will occur. And some sales lost as a result of it. They can either use better quality parts, or present us hard data to show the current parts are fine. Better yet, provide a warranty that this part will not be a failure point for a much longer period than the standard warranty. Emission control devices in cars in US have such extended warranty for example (by law I believe).

In no way is it proper to ask for such discussions to not occur. We as a forum are a consumer protection entity, not manufacturer. Any beef you have with us in this regard, is a beef you have with our entire mission.

Personally I remember being shocked the first time I did a teardown on Hypex amp (NC400) and finding these lower grade caps. I consider these amps the best of the best in technical performance. I like to see best of the best in part selection. While it is easy for us to see choices made in capacitors, what have they done in selection of others?

I drive a nice Landrover Discovery 3, known by the shit Ford engine known to break the crank shaft and yes mine did. LaRo drivers greet eachother with raised fingers according blown TDV6 engines... And yes , Ford or Land Rover do not pick up the tab.

 

[amirm]

There where no problems at all.

Then they should be proud to release such information. But they haven't so we have to decide for ourselves.