Any history buffs? What's your favorite era?

[Vacceo]

Spinoza and pre XX+ century philosophers didn't have access to genetics/epigenetics, thereby rendering a subjective perspective, rather than Sapolsky's objective/scientific conclusions. Until I started to read the current literature, I was firmly in the self-determination camp, much like before ASR I believed in all kinds of subjective audio myths that didn't adhere to the laws of physics and engineering. Degrasse Tyson quoted that 93% of post doctoral scientists do not believe in god isn't the surprise. The surprise is the 7% who do, "god of the gaps". From my casual observation, it seems like this is a similar ratio as to those that believe in self-determination. This surprised me, since I would have thought that all those individual smarty pants particle physicists et. al., would think that their accomplishments were the result of their own decisions and "gumption". Self-determination/free will, seems to share a dwindling number of adherents with those holding religious beliefs. I'd be interested in your opinion as a professor with a concentration in mythology and compared religions.

The conclusions of Spinoza should lead you to think that even the relative scarcity of knowledge in both data and natural principles was no deterrent to realize how small the margin of choice is for a human being. On that regard, Spinoza had an indeed surprising conception of the divine: it exists, but it has no thelos because there is no final aim. The divine, for him, is the very connection of causes and effects.

Myths dilute deep fears into a larger ocean of certainties taken a priori. The fact that we are self-aware comes with a massive myriad of fears: death, irrelevance, knowing your contingency as part of larger systems, lack of purpose... There are a multitude of answers for those fears and myth is, in a sense, a balm to ease the anxiety caused by the realization of the nihil. We create myths, inevitably, because our language is based on symbolization, and thus, it permeates to our cognition and volition. However, that cognition and volition is part of a larger system (the reality we live in) and includes a lot of smaller sytems (our biological functions).

We, in the end, create "noble lies" (as Plato would put it) to provide a meaning, however arbitrary it is, because that helps our functioning systems to actually function.

Do you have a historian's opinion on Resa Aslan's book "Zealot" with the caveat that it's a work for popular consumption and not a peer reviewed paper?

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It tries to "save" a religious figure, or at least contextualize it in a way that tries to be respectful with the faithful. It adds nothing particularly novel, but it´s not a bad text. If you want to go hard to the bone, try Marvin Harris´ "Secret of the Prince of Peace".

 

[Astoneroad]

The start of World War II in the US.
And how many different things in different countries would have changed the war.

It's the butterfly principle. If Henry VIII had a surviving male heir, or any infinite number of variables ANYTIME prior to WWII would yield a different outcome... ... like the time those aliens crashed in the Nevada desert... if they landed safely... we would have all been consumed as a cheap protein source long ago... lol.

 

[Astoneroad]

We, in the end, create "noble lies" (as Plato would put it) to provide a meaning, however arbitrary it is, because that helps our functioning systems to actually function.

Yes. Consistent, I think, with the current theory, at least Sapolsky's, that there is no free will and we're subject to chemistry and generational history, left to fill the gaps of why we acted in as we did. Unless I'm missing the obvious, that sounds like Plato's definition of rationalization. There was a great quote in the movie "The Big Chill"....

• Michael: I don't know anyone who could get through the day without two or three juicy rationalizations. They're more important than sex.
• Sam Weber: Ah, come on. Nothing's more important than sex.
• Michael: Oh yeah? Ever gone a week without a rationalization?

 

[Vacceo]

Yes. Consistent, I think, with the current theory, at least Sapolsky's, that there is no free will and we're subject to chemistry and generational history, left to fill the gaps of why we acted in as we did. Unless I'm missing the obvious, that sounds like Plato's definition of rationalization. There was a great quote in the movie "The Big Chill"....

• Michael: I don't know anyone who could get through the day without two or three juicy rationalizations. They're more important than sex.
• Sam Weber: Ah, come on. Nothing's more important than sex.
• Michael: Oh yeah? Ever gone a week without a rationalization?

Plato would argue that we're missing the fact that truth is beyond the sensitive and it's only reached by rationality.

The slightly darker truth that Plato probably never realized is that getting closer to a functioning model of reality shows, that there is no direction where to walk to.

 

[JeremyFife]

Now is good, now is interesting

 

[Astoneroad]

... getting closer to a functioning model of reality shows,

Yeah... about that... the standard model may not be "closer" if it needs to be scrapped to play nice with quantum physics and gravity. If that's the case, it's a detour from our intended destination. Perhaps this is just my sour grapes over the lack of results at CERN after the retooling. Hope beyond Higgs has lost its' luster... it seems.

that there is no direction where to walk to.

Truer words never spoken.

 

[Astoneroad]

Now is good, now is interesting

Carpe diem... it's the only moment we've got. That doesn't mean that spending the moment removed from the present isn't the best individual choice... lol.

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

I was a history major although I never used it in my work life. I chose it because it was the closest thing to getting academic credit for reading science fiction. My favorite eras are Classical Greece, where Thucydides did a marvelous job of describing and interpreting things that apply directly to things that are going on now, Chinese history from before the Europeans came, Rome from the end of the Republic to the first century of the empire, and the transition between the Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe, when Western thought underwent big changes.

 

[Vacceo]

Yeah... about that... the standard model may not be "closer" if it needs to be scrapped to play nice with quantum physics and gravity. If that's the case, it's a detour from our intended destination. Perhaps this is just my sour grapes over the lack of results at CERN after the retooling. Hope beyond Higgs has lost its' luster... it seems.

Truer words never spoken.

I like H.P. Lovecraft for a reason: he´s a prime example of anti-theleologic thought, even in purely narrative and fantastic terms. If natural sciences teach something is that we humans are inevitable intertwined with the fabric of reality. That means we are not a "special case" of anything.

A take I also have in my anthropology courses is that culture and nature are false dichotomies. What we do in terms of culture does exist because it is possible in the context of the existing universe. That includes all the ilusions we believe in. The existence of those ilusions is however, absolutely crucial for the functioning of our societies, both prehistoric or post-industrial. In that regard, fictions are not just beutiful and worth to be studied and understood, but necessary for what Aristotle called "eutaxy", or progress in the being.

 

[Astoneroad]

A take I also have in my anthropology courses is that culture and nature are false dichotomies. What we do in terms of culture does exist because it is possible in the context of the existing universe. That includes all the ilusions we believe in. The existence of those ilusions is however, absolutely crucial for the functioning of our societies, both prehistoric or post-industrial.

Back in the day when I was wearing tie dyed bell bottoms and doing various vision quests with the aid of sundry fungus based road maps, I read Castanada's trilogy and believed it to factually based. Man was I an Idiot!!!! Were my horizons expanded because I thought they were... sure (I used to believe in expensive power and speaker cables too). A few years later, a friend of mine who is a member of the Blackfoot people in Montana, invited me for a weekend of fasting and sweat lodges. He had been a "shaman in training" for about 10 years at that time, early '80s. I was honored to be a part of that. With your dual background, I'm sure that you can relate to the opportunity of being there. As you say, the culture possible in the context of the existing universe (at that time and place).

I've had this owl feather for more than 40 years. It was given to me at the end of the last sweat by my friend, symbolizing vision through the darkness. I've carried the narrative along with the talisman through the darkness ever since, which I think supports your subtext.

In that regard, fictions are not just beutiful and worth to be studied and understood, but necessary for what Aristotle called "eutaxy", or progress in the being.

The instances of where those fictions crossed the line nurturing "progress of being" rapidly reverting that forward movement. Florence in 1496 was the epicenter of humanist learning, art and progress in Europe. In 1497 the art, books and progress went up in the flames of the bonfire of the vanities... because of those fictions and illusions. Nietzche's famous "that which does not kill us makes us stronger" is all well and good, but humans ALWAYS choose the illusions and fictions that kill us...

It's interesting that you and I are engaging on this and my ex pat thread. Are you an ex bohemian?

 

[Astoneroad]

I just started this. I should have had my fill of Tudor England, but it's usually my fallback when I don't find something else at the moment.

 

[TimF]

The great Liz Truss era.

 

[Keith_W]

The great Liz Truss era.

Oh yes, I am waiting for the 18 volume compendium of her reign in office explaining in great detail every decision that she made. Like what she had for breakfast for each of her 50 days.

 

[Vacceo]

Back in the day when I was wearing tie dyed bell bottoms and doing various vision quests with the aid of sundry fungus based road maps, I read Castanada's trilogy and believed it to factually based. Man was I an Idiot!!!! Were my horizons expanded because I thought they were... sure (I used to believe in expensive power and speaker cables too). A few years later, a friend of mine who is a member of the Blackfoot people in Montana, invited me for a weekend of fasting and sweat lodges. He had been a "shaman in training" for about 10 years at that time, early '80s. I was honored to be a part of that. With your dual background, I'm sure that you can relate to the opportunity of being there. As you say, the culture possible in the context of the existing universe (at that time and place).

I've had this owl feather for more than 40 years. It was given to me at the end of the last sweat by my friend, symbolizing vision through the darkness. I've carried the narrative along with the talisman through the darkness ever since, which I think supports your subtext.

View attachment 406531

The instances of where those fictions crossed the line nurturing "progress of being" rapidly reverting that forward movement. Florence in 1496 was the epicenter of humanist learning, art and progress in Europe. In 1497 the art, books and progress went up in the flames of the bonfire of the vanities... because of those fictions and illusions. Nietzche's famous "that which does not kill us makes us stronger" is all well and good, but humans ALWAYS choose the illusions and fictions that kill us...

It's interesting that you and I are engaging on this and my ex pat thread. Are you an ex bohemian?

I have a deep respect and love for the practicioners of Afro-Caribbean religions. Some of the most interesting individuals I have met are Babalaos (Santería practicioners) and Houngans (Voodoo practicioners). They have really interesting positions in religious belief and ritual.

On the topic of choosing the destructive over the constructive, there is again, no real opposition. Walter Benjamin in his 15 thesis of the philosophy of history considers, quite accurately, that every monument of civilization is also a monument of barbarism.

I have never been a bohemian, I'm too working class for that.

Oh yes, I am waiting for the 18 volume compendium of her reign in office explaining in great detail every decision that she made. Like what she had for breakfast for each of her 50 days.

Just imagine what James George Frazer could do with that...

 

[Astoneroad]

I have a deep respect and love for the practicioners of Afro-Caribbean religions. Some of the most interesting individuals I have met are Babalaos (Santería practicioners) and Houngans (Voodoo practicioners). They have really interesting positions in religious belief and ritual.

On the topic of choosing the destructive over the constructive, there is again, no real opposition. Walter Benjamin in his 15 thesis of the philosophy of history considers, quite accurately, that every monument of civilization is also a monument of barbarism.

Although once held in my esteem, but no longer, Ayn Rand had a quote that still resonates a part of my brain, "The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." Being a recluse for almost 2 decades, I don't know if that's a process of civilization, or noise reduction to hear my own thoughts more clearly, which I believe that I now do and why I posted my ex pat thread.

I have never been a bohemian, I'm too working class for that.

It's never too late to learn professor. I'd suggest a trilogy of Kerouac's, "On the Road", "Dharma Bums" and "Big Sur". There is an underpinning of his desires to live according to his notion of Buddhist precepts that might appeal to your area of interest. A glass of wine or diversion of choice will help with the transition to bohemian in the moment... lol.

 

[Vacceo]

Although once held in my esteem, but no longer, Ayn Rand had a quote that still resonates a part of my brain, "The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." Being a recluse for almost 2 decades, I don't know if that's a process of civilization, or noise reduction to hear my own thoughts more clearly, which I believe that I now do and why I posted my ex pat thread.

It's never too late to learn professor. I'd suggest a trilogy of Kerouac's, "On the Road", "Dharma Bums" and "Big Sur". There is an underpinning of his desires to live according to his notion of Buddhist precepts that might appeal to your area of interest. A glass of wine or diversion of choice will help with the transition to bohemian in the moment... lol.

Isolation, for a species so dependent on community, is quite an act of civilization, as it implies the possibility of staying alive without interaction or with minimal one with other humans.

If you have seen my music preferences, you can guess that Ministry is probably among them.

They were my entrance to the beatniks, William Borroughs in particular. Being a Southern European, my particular take on ascesis and illumination is slightly different and more tied to people like Seneca or Epicurus.

 

[Astoneroad]

They were my entrance to the beatniks, William Borroughs in particular.

The natural background music while reading Burroughs might be the William Tell Overture... (renamed: "You can't make applesauce without shooting a wife in head") Luckily we can live through these flawed human's literary remnants, from the sanctum of one's Platonic cave complete with shadows dancing on the walls... lol.

Being a Southern European, my particular take on ascesis and illumination is slightly different and more tied to people like Seneca or Epicurus.

Threads of Epicurus run through the fabric of the Beats... me thinks...
“[...]the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue center light pop and everybody goes “Awww!” - Kerouac (On the Road)

 

[Vacceo]

I'm more on the train of "abstain from nothing, depend on nothing" that Seneca loved.

 

[Astoneroad]

Just out of curiosity, where do you land on the question of Shakespearean authorship? I'm guessing that it's a professional requirement to be in the Stratford camp, as much as it is for a particle physicist to channel Nietzche / Zarathustra... "Could it be possible! This old saint has not heard in his forest that God is dead!" I'm probably opening a can of worms with this one... so feel free to ignore it... lol.

 

[Astoneroad]

I'm more on the train of "abstain from nothing, depend on nothing" that Seneca loved.

Sounds like someone after a hedonistic caveman's own heart. I'll have to go back and give Seneca another read. It's been decades and was when I was binging on some of his fellow Roman authors, Tacitus, Suetonius, Cicero, et. al. and with the passing of time and mushing of grey matter have lost clear lines of distinction... lol.