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Amplifier power question

rgpit

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Okay, I have a question regarding amplifier power. Even though an amp has enough power to produce your desired listening level, would a higher powered amplifier add to the sound quality? My non-technical thought is that the extra power allows the amp to “start and stop” the larger drivers faster for a more controlled, tighter sound. Not sure how that translates into the correct electro-mechanical terminology.
 

sergeauckland

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Okay, I have a question regarding amplifier power. Even though an amp has enough power to produce your desired listening level, would a higher powered amplifier add to the sound quality? My non-technical thought is that the extra power allows the amp to “start and stop” the larger drivers faster for a more controlled, tighter sound. Not sure how that translates into the correct electro-mechanical terminology.
No, there's no 'extra power' as all an amplifier does is to provide volts from a low impedance source. If you're taking X volts from an amplifier to generate a certain loudness, the loudspeakers don't 'know' there's any more volts available. Provided that a low power amplifier has a low enough output impedance and can provide enough current for whatever load your loudspeakers present then unless you run out of volts, there will be no difference between a low power and a high power amplifier.

S
 

JohnYang1997

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There's no actual "start and stop" which is intuitive to us. In fact, the driver needs to go back and forth hundreds upon tens of thousands of times every second. Is it harder to punch a bag or punch and drag the bag back thousands of times each second?
So we need to define enough power. Shouldn't this be included in the power to be enough? Sure it needs to.
The common test load is resistive load which may not give a full presentation of how speakers behave. The term you are asking for is back EMF also reactivate load. The very famous damping factor in some ways indicates the rejection/immunity towards back EMF. When assessing or pursuing high damping factor one needs to know that cables usually have higher resistance than the output impedance of the amplifiers. There will be difference between good and bad cables. However it's not the price but the measured impedance that matters. You just need thick copper cables and good connectors.
So if it's enough then it's enough. If it's not enough then it isn't. Higher power amplifiers generally have both better performance in some ways and some trade-offs. Noise performance maybe worse on high power amplifiers. So in the end, you need comfortably high enough power but not solely pursuing high power.
 

Specialcause

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No, there's no 'extra power' as all an amplifier does is to provide volts from a low impedance source. If you're taking X volts from an amplifier to generate a certain loudness, the loudspeakers don't 'know' there's any more volts available. Provided that a low power amplifier has a low enough output impedance and can provide enough current for whatever load your loudspeakers present then unless you run out of volts, there will be no difference between a low power and a high power amplifier.

S
If the lower power amp (met impedance and current requirements and) could provide the same X volts as the high power amp so it's 'extra power' was redundant and this gave the desired loudness would the input sensitivity be the main factor in choosing between the amps (assuming similar price)? Say the source was CD standard 2 volts and the high power amp had gain of 26dB with input sensitivity of 1.6v whilst the low power amp was 28.6dB/0.6v.
 

Blumlein 88

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If the lower power amp (met impedance and current requirements and) could provide the same X volts as the high power amp so it's 'extra power' was redundant and this gave the desired loudness would the input sensitivity be the main factor in choosing between the amps (assuming similar price)? Say the source was CD standard 2 volts and the high power amp had gain of 26dB with input sensitivity of 1.6v whilst the low power amp was 28.6dB/0.6v.
In your example the 28.6 db amp would have less power if its input sensitivity were that low. In fact it would be only about 25% as powerful. If the lower power amp is powerful enough, it really wouldn't matter about the input sensitivity. In fact if your source is capable of 2 volts you'd just be more likely to clip the lower powered amp. But used with care either would do.

Oh, and I see this is your first post. Welcome to ASR.
 

sergeauckland

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If the lower power amp (met impedance and current requirements and) could provide the same X volts as the high power amp so it's 'extra power' was redundant and this gave the desired loudness would the input sensitivity be the main factor in choosing between the amps (assuming similar price)? Say the source was CD standard 2 volts and the high power amp had gain of 26dB with input sensitivity of 1.6v whilst the low power amp was 28.6dB/0.6v.
Amplifier sensitivity and gain are really two different calculations although closely related. Sensitivity tells you how many volts it takes to drive that amplifier to maximum power, whatever that power might be. Gain tells you how many volts you'll get out for a certain input, whatever that input might be.

If you know your source gives out, say, 2V, and you need a 100 watt amp (28.3v into 8 ohm) to get the loudness you want, the gain has to be at least x 14 or 23 dB. More gain just means that your volume control will never reach 100% without amplifier clipping. Less gain will mean you never reach your desired loudness.

In general, it's not a bad thing to have a little excess gain as that allows for sources or recordings that don't quite reach 2v output, but excessive gain means that your volume control will be far down and with less fine control and possible balance issues as most conventional volume controls are only properly balanced at near full rotation. Ideally,your 'normal' listening level should be at around 50% rotation which gives you enough headroom for louder than normal levels with less than normal sources.

S
 

RayDunzl

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Amplifier sensitivity and gain are really two different calculations although closely related. Sensitivity tells you how many volts it takes to drive that amplifier to maximum power, whatever that power might be.

Example:

Three amps in the series, same gain factor, increasing sensitivity, increasing output power.

But, each should play with equal loudness if given the same input signal, though the sensitivity is different.

1584132700291.png
 

GaryS

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Very interesting conversation for a non technical person like myself. I have been trying to figure out why dealers want me to buy a 300 watt amplifier when I only listen at 5 Watts. This is why I love ASR.
 

RayDunzl

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Very interesting conversation for a non technical person like myself. I have been trying to figure out why dealers want me to buy a 300 watt amplifier when I only listen at 5 Watts. This is why I love ASR.


Unless you are listening to a test tone, your wattage is continuously variable.

Using REW, approximate the wattage requirements (just look at the ratios) in use during a Piano, Bass, and Sax tune., taken directly from the digital signal.

1584135008759.png
 

GaryS

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Unless you are listening to a test tone, your wattage is continuously variable.

Using REW, approximate the wattage requirements (just look at the ratios) in use during a Piano, Bass, and Sax tune., taken directly from the digital signal.

View attachment 54153
Thanks much!! This one graph answers many questions that hi-fi dealers cant answer. Visual representations are always easier for me to quickly understand.
 

RayDunzl

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The advantage to having more power than you need is you never need more power than you have.

That's about all I can say as to "But, why?"

My amps are the little baby ones in Post#7.

---

I also have a pair of JBL LSR 308 with (claimed) 56W for woofer and again for the tweeter, located adjacently but outboard of the mains..

They run out of steam when pushed, but are fine for casual listening, and are used most of the time here, TV, radio, whatever.

The big (little baby) amps have no apparent limitation at any level to which I've pressed their service for music. I did pop the breaker in the garage on a test tone once (or twice), as my speaker impedance dips ridiculously low in the uppermost frequencies.

A similar but prior model of my main speakers:

1584136345479.png
 
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GaryS

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Well, it looks like your "babies" should keep in shape when you need to move them for some light house cleaning.
 

Specialcause

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Oh, and I see this is your first post. Welcome to ASR.
Thank you. Time to take the plunge and, in the spirit of learning, expose my ignorance to some public scrutiny
In your example the 28.6 db amp would have less power if its input sensitivity were that low. In fact it would be only about 25% as powerful. If the lower power amp is powerful enough, it really wouldn't matter about the input sensitivity. In fact if your source is capable of 2 volts you'd just be more likely to clip the lower powered amp. But used with care either would do.
Yes (25% less powerful) as max voltage output is 16 Vrms compared to higher power amp's 33 Vrms. With the higher power amp the gain (or should that be input senstivity?) controls are set below mid-point to get desired loudness with volume control at 80% -90% rotation for the majority of music played. I've not measured the output voltage but it must be no more than 16 Vrms or perhaps even less. So I'm estimating that the lower power amp is powerful enough for my 'speakers/room - though 'speaker manufacturer rating is 28.3V/100 watts. Based on that logic the higher power amp has lots of 'extra power' which I don't seem to need (for recordings at normal levels) but opting for the lower powered amp I run into potential problems due to its high input senstivity (relative to 2 V source). That prompted my question about input senstivity becoming the deciding factor. Can this be sorted by attenuators (-6dB?) on the lower power amp's inputs to reduce input sensitivity sufficiently whilst ensuring that max available output voltage doesn't fall too much below 16Vrms? Or is the higher power amp with unused 'extra power' the better option despite the risk of dials being turned up too high accidentally?
 

RayDunzl

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Just keep an eye on the knob.

I have knobs.

The exciting one goes from 0 to 151, and is currently at 52, moderately but pleasurably loud, much like having a piano and a bass and a sax over on the other side of the room.

Interestingly, that happens to generate pretty much a "reference" level, though set by ear, as I look at the SPL in the room. at the listening position, which I am not occupying at this time.

1584138012751.png


Quiet listening would put the knob's position in the 20's.
 

Blumlein 88

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Thank you. Time to take the plunge and, in the spirit of learning, expose my ignorance to some public scrutiny

Yes (25% less powerful) as max voltage output is 16 Vrms compared to higher power amp's 33 Vrms. With the higher power amp the gain (or should that be input senstivity?) controls are set below mid-point to get desired loudness with volume control at 80% -90% rotation for the majority of music played. I've not measured the output voltage but it must be no more than 16 Vrms or perhaps even less. So I'm estimating that the lower power amp is powerful enough for my 'speakers/room - though 'speaker manufacturer rating is 28.3V/100 watts. Based on that logic the higher power amp has lots of 'extra power' which I don't seem to need (for recordings at normal levels) but opting for the lower powered amp I run into potential problems due to its high input senstivity (relative to 2 V source). That prompted my question about input senstivity becoming the deciding factor. Can this be sorted by attenuators (-6dB?) on the lower power amp's inputs to reduce input sensitivity sufficiently whilst ensuring that max available output voltage doesn't fall too much below 16Vrms? Or is the higher power amp with unused 'extra power' the better option despite the risk of dials being turned up too high accidentally?
You could use attenuators if it is a problem. There even in line devices like this:

https://www.parts-express.com/harrison-labs-6-db-rca-line-level-audio-attenuator-pair--266-242

They have them in various values, but they drop the signal level. Put them in and forget about them.

How do you control volume now? If it is a volume knob or good digital level control, just turn things down, you aren't harming anything by doing that. If you are in a range where you have restricted range for changing volume you can do something like add the attenuators in line. In essence using attenuators in line is like reducing gain on the amp and reducing sensitivity of the amp.

So in your example you could make the lower powered amp act as if it is 22.6 db gain with 1.2 volt sensitivity by using a -6 db attenuator.
 

Tom C

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Unless you are listening to a test tone, your wattage is continuously variable.

Using REW, approximate the wattage requirements (just look at the ratios) in use during a Piano, Bass, and Sax tune., taken directly from the digital signal.

View attachment 54153
That’s beautiful, Ray. I always did like graphs better than equations.
When you look at the scale on the left (y axis labels), is each increment 1dB?
 

gags11

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Just keep an eye on the knob.

I have knobs.

The exciting one goes from 0 to 151, and is currently at 52, moderately but pleasurably loud, much like having a piano and a bass and a sax over on the other side of the room.

Interestingly, that happens to generate pretty much a "reference" level, though set by ear, as I look at the SPL in the room. at the listening position, which I am not occupying at this time.

View attachment 54158

Quiet listening would put the knob's position in the 20's.

First, thank you for the educational post. Have to say, I have enjoyed and have learned from your posts.

I have a naive question though. What is “reference” level and who, how, and why they came up with that? Is it what the sound engineer sets in a recording studio? Just curious.
 

777

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Okay, I have a question regarding amplifier power. Even though an amp has enough power to produce your desired listening level, would a higher powered amplifier add to the sound quality? My non-technical thought is that the extra power allows the amp to “start and stop” the larger drivers faster for a more controlled, tighter sound. Not sure how that translates into the correct electro-mechanical terminology.
Very interesting conversation for a non technical person like myself. I have been trying to figure out why dealers want me to buy a 300 watt amplifier when I only listen at 5 Watts. This is why I love ASR.

Finally it is about CREST FACTOR. If you want a quality music, quality music reproduction, you need a high crest factor. For that you need a powerfull amp. Of course, for high impulse peaks, your amplifier need to has high voltage and high impulse current.
I designed and made a power amplifiers with crest factor in my mind. For a normal room, until 50 sqm, 150w in 8ohm and 250w in 4ohm are enough.
 

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PaulD

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I have a naive question though. What is “reference” level and who, how, and why they came up with that? Is it what the sound engineer sets in a recording studio? Just curious.
There are a number of "reference" levels, depending on what you are listening to and how (stereo, surround, headphones). Bob Katz has done a lot of work on this and some of his articles are online (I think chapter 8 in his book deals with it).

There is also great information right here on ASR https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ference-sound-pressure-level-flowchart.11069/
 
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