amp rec: KEF R3, excellent detail and "punch" at low volumes

[vibe]

I have the KEF R3s and SVS SB1000 sub.

When I demo'd these I could hear great detail in the music at low volumes. I believe they were demo'd with Hegel H190.
I have the Cambridge CX81 and am not satisfied. I did try the option mentioned on here about the A07 headphone amp, and that was severely lacking compared to the Cambridge.

I've seen the following amps mentioned

Rotel: Seems like I've also seen it suggested that Rotel is what KEF uses to demo their speakers, though have also seen people say that about Hegel as well.
B-1552 MKII at 130 watts or the RB-1582 MKII or Michi X3

Parasound (unspecified)
Hegel H190
Marantz SR6014
Arcam pa240
Crown XLS1502
Rega Elicit R
Buckeye NC252MP
NAD (unspecified)

Appreciate any suggestions.
Have been using CD (10%) and Node N130 (90%) as sources. Unsatisfied with the Node and looking for streamer option as well.

Thank you

 

[vibe]

on this Reddit thread someone mentioned that it is about the current to get that detail at low volumes.

g: if it’s power is rated for a 4ohm output, and that rating is close to double the 8ohm output, there is a good chance it outputs a lot of current,
NAD, Hegel, and Parasound (Reddit)

 

[MCH]

Hi Vibe, i can't help you with your query, sorry, but wanted to ask you. Your sb1000 is the non pro version i guess, are you using the sub x-over to feed the mains? If yes, are you satisfied with it?

 

[Eetu]

Go for the Buckeye NC252MP (or other NC252 implementation).

Are you happy with the Node's usability, just not the sound quality? I would just use the coax out and add an external DAC. You would get ~30dB cleaner output that way.

And how are you integrating the SVS? I hope you are high passing the R3s? My take is that you would get a significant improvement by having the sub optimally integrated. I would add a MiniDSP Flex (w/ Dirac) between the Node and the power amp. This would give you room correction and also help you integrate the sub better.

 

[vibe]

Hi Vibe, i can't help you with your query, sorry, but wanted to ask you. Your sb1000 is the non pro version i guess, are you using the sub x-over to feed the mains? If yes, are you satisfied with it?

No worries, Marcos.
Yes, that is correct, non-pro. I noted that this item is now discontinued.
I do manual settings on the back of the sub.

 

[TheBatsEar]

I have the KEF R3s and SVS SB1000 sub.
When I demo'd these I could hear great detail in the music at low volumes. I believe they were demo'd with Hegel H190.
I have the Cambridge CX81 and am not satisfied.

It's probably not the amp, unless its defective. Buying another one would not fix your issue.

Since you have really good gear, consider buying a measurement microphone (UMIK-1 is what i and many others have) and actually measure what the problem is. If you can, take you microphone and laptop and go to where the speakers where demoed and take a measurement to compare.

Most likely reason for muddy bass is the room and it's room modes. They can be fixed to a good degree using DSP, either in software (Windows, Mac, Linux) or hardware (MiniDSP).

 

[vibe]

Go for the Buckeye NC252MP (or other NC252 implementation).

Are you happy with the Node's usability, just not the sound quality? I would just use the coax out and add an external DAC. You would get ~30dB cleaner output that way.

And how are you integrating the SVS? I hope you are high passing the R3s? My take is that you would get a significant improvement by having the sub optimally integrated. I would add a MiniDSP Flex (w/ Dirac) between the Node and the power amp. This would give you room correction and also help you integrate the sub better.

The App for the Node only lists my playlists through the letter "D"
When I contacted their support the response was to log out of all of my devices from Amazon & Node, then reinstall some of those apps, and then reboot Node. When none of that worked, they said that it's a known issue that there's a limit to playlists.

There's also a significant lag.

Sound quality is also an issue, okay, but not very good.

If I'm going to go the route of a separate DAC, which is a solid and appreciated suggestion, then it seems like I should try to find an Amp that doesn't already include a DAC?

Any recommendations for each of those?

I've tried Roon and didn't think it was worth the money nor the hype nor the extra efforts and expenses.

 

[MCH]

i guess you have many options to integrate the sub, in between them:
- something like the minidsp flex that is DAC and DSP functions and was reviewed here: outputs 4 channels (the device does the crossovers)
- use a normal 2 channel dac and relay on the integrated 80 hz crossover of the sb-1000. You are limited to this fixed x-over but it is probably the cheapest option. I wonder how well this works, thats why i was asking before...
- use a normal 2 channel dac and yet an external xover like a minidsp 2x4HD or similar
All of these options require just a normal 2 channel power amplifier provided you use the volume control of the dac

 

[vibe]

It's probably not the amp, unless its defective. Buying another one would not fix your issue.

Since you have really good gear, consider buying a measurement microphone (UMIK-1 is what i and many others have) and actually measure what the problem is. If you can, take you microphone and laptop and go to where the speakers where demoed and take a measurement to compare.

Most likely reason for muddy bass is the room and it's room modes. They can be fixed to a good degree using DSP, either in software (Windows, Mac, Linux) or hardware (MiniDSP).

My issue is not muddy bass, not sure what gave that impression.
Good idea on taking measurements at the dealer's store.
My challenge is not hearing enough details at low volume like I did that convinced me these were the speakers for me. I demo'd about 6 sets of speakers that day including top of the line ELAC, B&W, and some I don't even remember. All were connected the same way to the same amp and I listened to the same 4-5 songs representing different styles and genres on each.

The KEF were significantly better for what I like to hear in music so much that I stayed until they closed and couldn't stop smiling, tapping my feet, and pulling up all of my favorite tunes to hear things I hadn't heard.

 

[vibe]

Go for the Buckeye NC252MP (or other NC252 implementation).

Are you happy with the Node's usability, just not the sound quality? I would just use the coax out and add an external DAC. You would get ~30dB cleaner output that way.

And how are you integrating the SVS? I hope you are high passing the R3s? My take is that you would get a significant improvement by having the sub optimally integrated. I would add a MiniDSP Flex (w/ Dirac) between the Node and the power amp. This would give you room correction and also help you integrate the sub better.

I am not high passing them. How do I do that?
I find the Mini DSP quite confusing even following guides by the company. I am open to it, just a bit complicated.

So, Node > MiniDSP Flex > Cambridge
Which one would the Sub connect to?

 

[TheBatsEar]

So, Node > MiniDSP Flex > Cambridge
Which one would the Sub connect to?

To the MiniDSP.
The MiniDSP would remove the bass going into the Cambridge too if you configure it like that. The step by step instructions make sense once you see it in real live.
The MiniDSP would also fix a good part of your room response in the bass region, which may fix your bass issue.

However, the MiniDSP Flex seems to be sold out for now.

As for not hearing enough details at low volume, a loudness correction might be needed. Best one i know is the variable loudness in Yamaha amplifiers (A-S 301, 501, 701 and 801).

 

[Eetu]

I am not high passing them. How do I do that?
I find the Mini DSP quite confusing even following guides by the company. I am open to it, just a bit complicated.

So, Node > MiniDSP Flex > Cambridge
Which one would the Sub connect to?

High passing the R3s would relieve them from having to try producing anything under, for example, 80Hz. This would both easen the load for your amplifier and reduce the speakers' distortion. The MiniDSP Flex has 4 outputs so you can connect your amp and subwoofer and apply different settings/filters to individual channels. The UI is very easy to use IMO considering how flexible setups it allows.

 

[Mtbf]

The App for the Node only lists my playlists through the letter "D"

I must say I don’t get your problem with the Node. I use both Qobuz and Tidal with two Nodes in two different rooms, have all kinds of extensive playlists and have had no problems at all with playlists or sound quality. But, as Eetu said, I do use a seperate DAC with the Node, so I only use it as a streaming device. Use it with my iPhone, iPads and even Apple watch. Maybe you can elaborate more on the problem you’re having?

 

[wjp007]

I’m using the mConnect app on an ipad with upnp to an old windows laptop running foobar2000 as a renderer. Mconnect supports Tidal and Qobuz and my network music using Plex. Works great for me.

I have the LS50 Metas and use a Topping PA5 which to me seem like a perfect match.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I have the KEF R3s and SVS SB1000 sub.

When I demo'd these I could hear great detail in the music at low volumes. I believe they were demo'd with Hegel H190.
I have the Cambridge CX81 and am not satisfied. I did try the option mentioned on here about the A07 headphone amp, and that was severely lacking compared to the Cambridge.

I've seen the following amps mentioned

Rotel: Seems like I've also seen it suggested that Rotel is what KEF uses to demo their speakers, though have also seen people say that about Hegel as well.
B-1552 MKII at 130 watts or the RB-1582 MKII or Michi X3

Parasound (unspecified)
Hegel H190
Marantz SR6014
Arcam pa240
Crown XLS1502
Rega Elicit R
Buckeye NC252MP
NAD (unspecified)

Appreciate any suggestions.
Have been using CD (10%) and Node N130 (90%) as sources. Unsatisfied with the Node and looking for streamer option as well.

Thank you

Best bet is to get a quality DSP. Most unlikely you're hearing a difference b/c of the amp or the DAC. It's the way the speaker is interacting with the room, especially in the bass since you are using a sub. My suggestion is to look into either a miniDSP Shd, or miniDSP Flex. Either one of those will give you an electronic crossover, and Dirac Live. If you use the high and low pass for the sub, add a quality EQ like the one suggested by Pierre Aubert's sight, and then do a Dirac correction below the Schroeder Frequency (around 300 hz), you should have a sound superior to what you heard in the showroom.

You can get the eq from Pierre site specifically designed for the R3 from here.

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/develop/datas/eq/KEF%20R3/iir-autoeq.txt

 

[vibe]

Any Class D amps that folks would recommend?

 

[VMAT4]

Any Class D amps that folks would recommend?

The recommended Buckeye amp is class d.

 

[envydd]

I have used a nc502mp (like the buckeye one) and a vtv purifi with my r3. Either are good for low volume. Also my r3 took a month or so to open up. Initially it did sound muddier and darker than my ls50. Now it’s all good.

Also got my minidsp recently after waiting for 2 months, but haven’t had the time to figure out the best settings.

 

[Beave]

Lack of detail at lower volumes is very likely NOT a problem with your amp.

It could be your focus was greater when auditioning at the dealer.

Or it could be that the dealer's room was quieter - in terms of environmental noise - than your current room.

But there is no magic that makes one amp more *detailed* than another at low volumes.

Well, I take that back a little. Something like loudness compensation could do it. But that's EQ, not an amplifier characteristic.

 

[Dj7675]

I have the KEF R3s and SVS SB1000 sub.

When I demo'd these I could hear great detail in the music at low volumes. I believe they were demo'd with Hegel H190.
I have the Cambridge CX81 and am not satisfied. I did try the option mentioned on here about the A07 headphone amp, and that was severely lacking compared to the Cambridge.

I've seen the following amps mentioned

Rotel: Seems like I've also seen it suggested that Rotel is what KEF uses to demo their speakers, though have also seen people say that about Hegel as well.
B-1552 MKII at 130 watts or the RB-1582 MKII or Michi X3

Parasound (unspecified)
Hegel H190
Marantz SR6014
Arcam pa240
Crown XLS1502
Rega Elicit R
Buckeye NC252MP
NAD (unspecified)

Appreciate any suggestions.
Have been using CD (10%) and Node N130 (90%) as sources. Unsatisfied with the Node and looking for streamer option as well.

Thank you

Just a few comments about low volume detail...
-Get a good quite amp, easy to recommend an nc252 (many good vendors)
-Get a microphone to measure your in room response
-Fletcher Munson ... if you want to hear detail at low volume you may need to do some eq on both the bass and the treble. Could be some simple tone controls, or eq filters
-Make sure you are listening in a quite environment. Too much noise will make it difficult to hear detail
Just a few ideas