add a sub / cheapest solution for bass management

[theYak]

Hello from France,

I'm new here. I struggle with English and I'm a newbie in the "audio world." Such a good beginning!

I currently have a stereo system composed of a streamer (Wiim Pro), a DAC (SMSL M500 MKIII), an amp (Audiophonics MPAS250NC XLR), and a pair of passive speakers (KEF Q350).

I am happy with that setup, but for some reason, I plan to add an active subwoofer. So, I am looking for the best solution that is not too expensive and includes bass management features (such as delay adjustment between the subwoofer and speakers, and a crossover). I already have a UMIK-1 microphone and use REW (Room EQ Wizard), but I am not an expert.

In Europe, I can find the MiniDSP Flex Balanced Edition for 749€. I know it's a well-regarded piece of gear and maybe it could replace the SMSL M500 in my setup. However, I find this solution a bit expensive because I roughly have a 1000€ budget for the subwoofer and equipment with bass management control.

Recently, I found the Wiim Ultra, which retails for 399€ and includes bass management control. So I wondered if that could fit my needs.

I thought about different options:

Option 1: The Wiim Ultra replaces the duo Wiim Pro/SMSL M500.
Pros: Cheapest and easiest solution.
Cons: I need RCA/XLR adapters to connect to my current amp.

Option 2: The Wiim Ultra replaces the Wiim Pro.
Pros: Cheap and easy.
Cons: Is the SMSL M500 still useful in that setup?

Option 3: A passive preamp to avoid RCA/XLR adapters and to manage the volume in the analogue domain?

Option 4: The MiniDSP... if the Wiim Ultra solution can't beat it.

Option 5: Feel free to suggest anything else.

Thanks for your help!

 

[staticV3]

Option 5: Feel free to suggest anything else.

WiiM Amp/Amp Pro replaces WiiM Pro, SMSL M500, and Audiophonics Amp.

Though lower output power means that the WiiM Amp can only play 80% as loud as your Audiophonics Amp.

Not sure if that 20% is crucial - are you close to maxing out the Audiophonics Amp at the moment?

 

[Petrushka]

My power amp has passive volume controls, which I use to limit the maximum volume.

This makes slider controls on phone apps easier to use. I have the whole range from zero to 100 percent.

 

[theYak]

WiiM Amp/Amp Pro replaces WiiM Pro, SMSL M500, and Audiophonics Amp.

Though lower output power means that the WiiM Amp can only play 80% as loud as your Audiophonics Amp.

Not sure if that 20% is crucial - are you close to maxing out the Audiophonics Amp at the moment?

Wow, I didn't expect that solution. It's quite interesting, thanks for the reply.

I bought the Hypex because I thought it was one of the best options in terms of performance-to-price ratio. Maybe the Hypex is a bit more "linear" (I'm not sure) than the Wiim. But, could I hear the difference? Probably not. However, some people are "complaining" about the lack of power of the Wiim. I have a fairly large living room... So...

What is your opinion on the first three options?

 

[staticV3]

What is your opinion on the first three options?

I can barely read them


PNGs with transparent background are usually a bad idea online.

 

[theYak]

Damn it !

 

[staticV3]

I'd wait for the Amp Pro release, order one from Amazon, then see if it has enough power for the KEFs once you've added a sub and high-passed the Mains.

If there's not enough power, send it back and replace it with an Ultra.

 

[Petrushka]

I'd wait for the Amp Pro release, order one from Amazon, then see if it has enough power for the KEFs once you've added a sub and high-passed the Mains.

If there's not enough power, send it back and replace it with an Ultra.

I’m not pleased with the casual send it back policy. Either it is repackaged as new, or it is sold at a loss as refurbished.

 

[jamesmafyew]

For what it's worth, a 80% of the power is only 1dB less maximum volume: 10 * log (0.8) = -0.97. It's hard for me to imagine that difference being noticeable or consequential -- especially since a sub would take some of the higher-power low bass signals out of the main LR and reduce their power requirements to achieve the same broadband SPL. Plus, the forthcoming Pro version of the Wiim Amp is supposed to have post-filter negative feedback, so it should have minimal load dependency.

 

[theYak]

Okay, the Wiim Amp or waiting for the Wiim Amp Pro, got it.

However, the Hypex NC252MP is rated at 150W at 8 ohms, while the Wiim Amp is rated at 60W.

So, maybe I'm mistaken, but the Wiim Amp is about 40% of the Hypex's power. Am I wrong?

To have all the information, what do you think about the first three options compared to the Wiim Amp option?

 

[staticV3]

So, maybe I'm mistaken, but the Wiim Amp is about 40% of the Hypex's power. Am I wrong?

Power and loudness scale differently.

If you double the power, loudness only goes up by about 25%.

For twice the loudness, you need to 10x the output power (60W->600W).

At 8Ω, the WiiM Amp has 40% of the Audiophonics' output power, which means it's 75% as loud.

At 4Ω, the WiiM Amp has 50% of the Audiophonics' output power, which means it's 80% as loud.

The Q350 is a 4Ω speaker:

 

[jamesmafyew]

@staticV3 do you have a link/citation for the idea that doubled loudness = +10dB SPL (10x power)? I work in audio postproduction & moonlight in live sound and we would never talk about *perceived loudness* without units and a reference to frequency weighting (e.g. K-weighting most commonly for LUFS units, or unweighted + crest factor for RMS). Without having looked at the specs of the amps in question, when I saw you using percentages I assumed those were power ratios which would extrapolate to specific dB SPL differences. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[dfiler]

That's a lot of attention/money on electronics relative to the quality of the Kef Q350 speakers. Without better speakers and probably significantly more room treatment, there's no point in worrying about the electronic specs at all. I wouldn't worry about any of these amps being the limiting factor with the Q350. That's even more the case once you have a sub. All of the amp power will then be dedicated to mids and highs, and those take very little power as compared to bass frequencies.

One option for the sub is one with built-in EQ options. SVS subs provide 3 parametric EQs. That's typically enough to tame a subwoofer's nodes/nulls.

 

[staticV3]

@staticV3 do you have a link/citation for the idea that doubled loudness = +10dB SPL (10x power)?

'The Relation between the Sone and Phon Scales of Loudness" by D.W.Robinson

 

[theYak]

To summarize:

• I can wait for the Wiim Amp Pro. This way, I have only one box, and it's the cheaper solution.
• If I choose the Wiim Ultra, which setup is better?
  • Setup 1: wiim Ultra -> Sub / wiim Ultra -> RCA/XLR adapters -> Hypex power amp
  • Setup 2: wiim Ultra -> Sub / wiim Ultra -> SMSL M500 -> Power amp

I understand that I have no advantage in choosing the Ultra compared to the Wiim Amp Pro.

Another question (sorry, another one, I'm still a bit lost but your help is excellent):
If I connect the sub to the SMSL RCA output, can I have the same management as with the Wiim Amp/Ultra solution?

 

[boxerfan88]

Or you can consider an analog crossover:

inexpensive = dbx234xl

expensive = https://sublimeacoustic.com/products/k235-stereo-3-way-active-crossover

 

[staticV3]

If I choose the Wiim Ultra, which setup is better?

• Setup 1: wiim Ultra -> Sub / wiim Ultra -> RCA/XLR adapters -> Hypex power amp
• Setup 2: wiim Ultra -> Sub / wiim Ultra -> SMSL M500 -> Power amp

Should you choose the WiiM Ultra over the Amp Pro, you can simply test both setups and keep whichever you prefer.

 

[CPTX]

I am generally good to very good at finding low cost solutions.
Could you not just keep what you already have....use the RCA out on the mkiii.....connected to a mini DSP......then mini DSP to the active sub of your preference?

 

[CPTX]

I have two of the DSP-LF sub managers I posted above (for different set ups in different rooms). $62 I believe per DSP unit….extremely simple, low cost, and effective.