A SINAD of 80 or SINAD of 100 Can You Really Tell The Difference?

[Sokel]

I understand scepticism when it comes to audio claims however you have already been provided the measurements that determine differences in between the products. I am not trying to push any particular point of view, only relate my own experience . I am one of the people who who look for 3rd party verified measurements to distinguish between products, which I believe is one of the founding purposes of the Audio Science Forum. In this particular case the measurements came after my listening experience which helped explain the differences and reinforced what I had heard.

The problem with your request to do ABX testing is that apart from the difficulty in arranging it, I haven't seen an ABX test yet where all parties were happy with its parameters or conclusions. And on that subject, it is not for me to prove that item X sounds better than item Y due to Sinad differences . The proof is there in black and white that there are sonic differences. Have you done ABX testing that proves differences in SINAD is inaudible?

Most of the people here have done (I believe and hope) the Klippel test.
It's easy and gives peace of mind.

No need for ABX.

 

[Astrofly]

I understand scepticism when it comes to audio claims however you have already been provided the measurements that determine differences in between the products. I am not trying to push any particular point of view, only relate my own experience . I am one of the people who who look for 3rd party verified measurements to distinguish between products, which I believe is one of the founding purposes of the Audio Science Forum. In this particular case the measurements came after my listening experience which helped explain the differences and reinforced what I had heard.

The problem with your request to do ABX testing is that apart from the difficulty in arranging it, I haven't seen an ABX test yet where all parties were happy with its parameters or conclusions. And on that subject, it is not for me to prove that item X sounds better than item Y due to Sinad differences . The proof is there in black and white that there are sonic differences. Have you done ABX testing that proves differences in SINAD is inaudible?

My question wasn't directed at you personally. It was a general observation that ABX testing is the solution given for many other types of audio issues discussed here on ASR, so why not SINAD, particularly since SINAD is seemingly the one measurement discussed more than any other here? If as you say, ABX testing is difficult to arrange and by implication it is unreasonable to request of someone, how is that any different than requesting ABX tests of someone for DACs, amplifiers, etc? With some of those other audio areas there are existing ABX tests. Are there none here?

In answering your question to me, no, I have not done ABX tests for SINAD because as you mention, it would be difficult to arrange and set up, or at least more difficult to do than I am willing to try and take on, and of course this applies to any other ABX test. However, were I to make observations or claims of fact on audio audibility in certain areas without that data, I would assume that I'd be told I need to do them to verify my claims. Why is that fair to request in those instances and not here?

The larger point I'm getting at is either SINAD is a solved issue or it is not. Either a person can point to a specific db measurement and say, "That's sufficient for human audibility," and then move on, or it's an ongoing technical challenge yet to be solved and new technologies with ever higher SINAD ratings are striving to one day get us there.

My suspicion is that it's a solved issue in terms of human audibility and that obsessing over it is another way guys like to have fun discussing technology and can point to higher SINAD numbers in Product A over Product B as a point of pride in ownership. If one doesn't care about such things though and just wants the most affordable, competent audio product, then it seems focusing on SINAD beyond or even well beyond the point of human audibility and acting like it matters for human audibility is a disservice to that person here on ASR looking for reliable information.

 

[GaryH]

Most of the people here have done (I believe and hope) the Klippel test.
It's easy and gives peace of mind.

No need for ABX.

Nope, that test is invalid. Pkane's Distort + Foobar's ABX Comparator (with verifiable checksum) is the way to go.

 

[Sokel]

Nope, that test is invalid. Pkane's Distort + Foobar's ABX Comparator (with verifiable checksum) is the way to go.

If think I'm well aware of both

 

[fpitas]

As a practical matter, the SINAD/THD+N meter doesn't care if there is or is not a signal. It simply subtracts a tone that you give it and what remains, which in this case is all noise, is reported as THD+N relative to whatever signal level you would have played, but didn't.

Point taken. Although as an example, when you take data on SINAD it is relative to the power output. I'm not sure how you extrapolate that graph to 0 power.

 

[tp1]

One point I should mention about my observations of differences between equipment (which I put down to Sinad differences) is that I am running a 12 channel system which means that most channels are playing low level sounds for most of the time. Low level sounds such ambient sounds for surround effects. It is at this level that I heard differences what I believed to be due at least in part to Sinad differences. Specifically, more detailed low level sounds which when combined as a whole was pretty hard to miss with a system and room I am very familiar with.

I listen to 2 channel music on another system but I suspect the challenge would a lot harder where you would need to try to spot tiny differences during quieter passages .