A millennial's rant on classical music

[pablolie]

Yea, that cannon explosion has been the audiophiles Holy Grail since Christ lost his sandals.
Can you rig handle it? Back in the day it was the big test of needle tracking on vinyl.
Along came the Telarc CD, and it was the ultimate test for bass extension and power of a serious system.

"The 1812 CD (from June 1984, Vol.7 No.3):
This was reviewed in its analog form in Vol.4 No.5, and there is little to add to that review except to say that the hard-to-track cannon shots on analog are absolutely lethal on CD—though not hard to track! If your power amp is capable of ripping your woofers apart, the cannonshots will give it the opportunity to do so. Telarc's warning in the booklet (and on the album cover) should be heeded. Despite the in-house presence of two 200Wpc power amplifiers, I have yet to hear these appalling thuds reproduced at higher than modest levels without obvious evidence of something overloading. And if anyone can assemble a system that will reproduce those sounds cleanly, and without attenuating their low end, I would not at all be surprised to hear about broken windows.

The recording is typical Telarc, with all the positive and slightly negative things implied thereby. As usual there is that tendency towards steeliness when the whole violin section digs in, but considering the bulk of material released on CD to date, this is one of the best orchestral CDs you can buy. As with the analog version, this is still an almost ridiculous challenge to a reproducing system-a challenge which, if met, would prove nothing of musical worth about the system's fidelity.

The attention this recording has received because of the 1812 has tended to obscure the fact that the Capriccio is one of the best renditions of this warhorse that has been recorded in recent years—better in some respects than the one with Fiedler on the Crystal Clear label. The Cossack Dance, on the other hand, is a bore.—J. Gordon Holt"

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If I was an audio writer, I'd go write something like "...thanks to the Morphoptanium woofers in the UKantAffhort DominuX speakers, I could finally establish the cannons in Julius Insanitus' 1946 recording of the 1812 Overture were indeed restored French Gribeauval 12 pounders ..". :-D

 

[Doodski]

My listening room is ~8000cu-ft, but I wouldn't want to listen to an energetically played sax in it. Too loud. My system can't accurately reproduce my wife's rock drum kit either, especially if she's playing Wipe Out. The system does really well with my live recordings of various pianos, acoustic guitars, violin, acoustic bass, congas, cello, trombone, and tuba. But trumpets and saxophones... nah.

Have you used or contemplated using a large horn setup for the mids in a hybrid speaker configuration with woofer and dome tweeters? I have experience with that. It is nice for percussive stuff and especially good for trumpet, violin, piano etc.

 

[Robin L]

Yea, that cannon explosion has been the audiophiles Holy Grail since Christ lost his sandals.
Can you rig handle it? Back in the day it was the big test of needle tracking on vinyl.
Along came the Telarc CD, and it was the ultimate test for bass extension and power of a serious system.

"The 1812 CD (from June 1984, Vol.7 No.3):
This was reviewed in its analog form in Vol.4 No.5, and there is little to add to that review except to say that the hard-to-track cannon shots on analog are absolutely lethal on CD—though not hard to track! If your power amp is capable of ripping your woofers apart, the cannonshots will give it the opportunity to do so. Telarc's warning in the booklet (and on the album cover) should be heeded. Despite the in-house presence of two 200Wpc power amplifiers, I have yet to hear these appalling thuds reproduced at higher than modest levels without obvious evidence of something overloading. And if anyone can assemble a system that will reproduce those sounds cleanly, and without attenuating their low end, I would not at all be surprised to hear about broken windows.

The recording is typical Telarc, with all the positive and slightly negative things implied thereby. As usual there is that tendency towards steeliness when the whole violin section digs in, but considering the bulk of material released on CD to date, this is one of the best orchestral CDs you can buy. As with the analog version, this is still an almost ridiculous challenge to a reproducing system-a challenge which, if met, would prove nothing of musical worth about the system's fidelity.

The attention this recording has received because of the 1812 has tended to obscure the fact that the Capriccio is one of the best renditions of this warhorse that has been recorded in recent years—better in some respects than the one with Fiedler on the Crystal Clear label. The Cossack Dance, on the other hand, is a bore.—J. Gordon Holt"

---

I remember when It came out - I would go to Hi-Fi salons. They were mostly tired of folks asking to hear it on their most expensive rigs. I suspect the number of electronic/mechanical breakdowns was part of the problem, the other was that the recording (along with other Telarc showpieces) would interfere with customers in other rooms who really intended to buy something.

 

[pablolie]

I played sax for about 3 decades, mostly tenor, and no system can adequately reproduce that live sound in a room. No matter how loud the system might play. Much less any more exuberant instruments. All systems are a compromise, but a worthy compromise to let us enjoy the music we love. (Even though the members here only listen to graphs and test tones )

Maybe that's why my trumpet was "stolen" when I was 10 years old and we lived in a smallish flat in Barcelona... :-D

 

[Robin L]

A saxophone belongs in a large venue. My listening room is ~8000cu-ft, but I wouldn't want to listen to an energetically played sax in it. Too loud. My system can't accurately reproduce my wife's rock drum kit either, especially if she's playing Wipe Out. The system does really well with my live recordings of various pianos, acoustic guitars, violin, acoustic bass, congas, cello, trombone, and tuba. But trumpets and saxophones... nah.

There's a guy who plays a full drum kit in our amateur school band, sometimes bringing the kit into someone's house to play along and I wish he didn't. I guess he's used to playing in rock bands and has no idea how loud he is.

 

[Robin L]

If I was an audio writer, I'd go write something like "...thanks to the Morphoptanium woofers in the UKantAffhort DominuX speakers, I could finally establish the canons in Julius Insanitus' 1946 recording of the 1812 Overture were indeed restored French Gribeauval 12 pounders ..". :-D

". . . and then the tinnitus kicked in . . . "

 

[pablolie]

...

My early percussion career was also shortlived, those maracas disappeared. :-D

 

[blueone]

Have you used or contemplated using a large horn setup for the mids in a hybrid speaker configuration with woofer and dome tweeters? I have experience with that. It is nice for percussive stuff and especially good for trumpet, violin, piano etc.

No, horns aren’t my thing. I have been repeatedly tempted by electrostatics, but they certainly won’t help reproduce my wife’s biggest drum kit. But I’ve come to my senses in the past couple of years, I‘m just going to have to live with my Salon2/sub system for the time being. I know, it’s a big sacrifice. A friend tells me if I hear the Perlisten S7t I’ll trade up, but I doubt it. I put myself through sports car rehab, and I think my case of upgrade-itis with audio just went away on its own.

It occurred to me after I posted that my system can also do a convincing job with my wife’s mallet instruments. The 4.3 octave marimba, the vibraphone, and the xylophone.

 

[blueone]

There's a guy who plays a full drum kit in our amateur school band, sometimes bringing the kit into someone's house to play along and I wish he didn't. I guess he's used to playing in rock bands and has no idea how loud he is.

He might have some significant hearing loss too. My wife wears special musician’s ear protection when she plays, especially in small venues.

 

[Doodski]

my system can also do a convincing job with my wife’s mallet instruments. The 4.3 octave marimba, the vibraphone, and of the xylophone.

That @blueone would be something to see and behold. Live playing of them I have never experienced but would be sooper.

I have been repeatedly tempted by electrostatics, but they certainly won’t help reproduce my wife’s biggest drum kit.

I have heard several different older models and enjoyed them for what they are good at. The ones I heard where setup well, played strings and fine details very well but never had any oomph. Can a electrostatic have oomph? I dunno.

My listening room is ~8000cu-ft

This is a very unique situation in that that I would want room filling sound reinforcement rather than a small intimate zone where the remainder of the space is quiet in comparison. Like very powerful SPL, major thump capability and then really physically explore the ~8000cu-ft space and take advantage of the comfort level around the room rather than in the triangle of sound.

 

[blueone]

This is a very unique situation in that that I would want room filling sound reinforcement rather than a small intimate zone where the remainder of the space is quiet in comparison. Like very powerful SPL, major thump capability and then really physically explore the ~8000cu-ft space and take advantage of the comfort level around the room rather than in the triangle of sound.

The Salon2s are about 12 feet apart on the long wall, and my listening seat is in a roughly equilateral triangle, so I wouldn't call my setup a "small intimate zone". A large factor in the room's volume is the 13 feet high ceiling, which I think is pretty important for high volume sound quality. A huge room with a ten foot ceiling doesn't sound very good, IMO. Being a classical music / jazz / solo piano sort of guy, high db rock and the like aren't a factor in my listening. If I wanted to accurately reproduce a live jazz quartet or something in that ilk, I'd need a bigger room IMO. This is my go-to album to convince myself that live jazz with a sax or trumpet just isn't going to sound really live, even in my room.

https://www.amazon.com/Remembrance-Village-Vanguard-Harper-Brothers/dp/B01MFDTR9K

 

[Doodski]

I am presently listening to The Harper Brothers - Topic - Remembrance on YouTube to check out the stuff. It's very good. My style for sure.

The Salon2s are about 12 feet apart on the long wall, and my listening seat is in a roughly equilateral triangle, so I wouldn't call my setup a "small intimate zone".

For me that is small in relationship to the room dimensions. A ~8000cu-ft space to me has a large floor dimension. I want to be able to dance around sit on the various seating and get into it and really feel the freedom that that kind of room affords. My parents with my help built a very large home with a huge living room and ~12 foot to ~27 foot high sloped open ceiling and it was glorious so I imagine your room is very nice. It must be! A room like that with underlay and thick carpet requires talking louder or one can't hear anything too so it needs power. What dimensions are you filling with this audio gear at that room?

If I wanted to accurately reproduce a live jazz quartet or something in that ilk, I'd need a bigger room IMO.

Even bigger. Hmmz... At that rate have you considered building a small stage @ home so you may have live musicians? It's a big home and you could fill it with guests and entertain and have a great time.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

But anytime I've read about any of the instruments getting separated out from a purely front stage presentation it's been met with a very negative response.

Not every time but, imho, it depends on why/how it is being done. I vaguely recall a story about a jazz remix created early in the multichannel era when a producer was asked "Why did you put the percussion in the back?" and his answer was "Because I could."

I have a fair number of unorthodox spatial representations in classical recordings which I greatly enjoy but they remain in the minority.

 

[Sal1950]

Not every time but, imho, it depends on why/how it is being done. I vaguely recall a story about a jazz remix created early in the multichannel era when a producer was asked "Why did you put the percussion in the back?" and his answer was "Because I could."

I have a fair number of unorthodox spatial representations in classical recordings which I greatly enjoy but they remain in the minority.

Oh for sure, but you and I are different and can appreciate the artists & production team creating the artistry of painting
an audio picture that surrounds the listener. I'm not locked into the old "soundstage up-front" as the only way to present
a musical event. They can be many and varied.
Kal, I know your mainly classical but if you haven't yet, take a few minutes to check out a few tracks from this very
exciting and different Atmos recording. Some love it, many hate it. LOL
Yello - Point

 

[Sal1950]

I do have sub, centre and rear for films and use them for any multi channel recordings that come my way but it is a low budget solution, spending the same on multiple channels as I did on two makes absolutely no financial sens, given the thousands of stereo recordings I own and the fact I probably only watch multi channel video once or twice a month.

Frank that's your choice of course and I would never slam anyone gear but you can never expect to get first class results from an third class rig. When you move from your top flight 2ch to that "low budget solution" surround, that's what you'll get.
Dump that low budget rig and use the money to upgrade your first class stereo to a first class surround..
I and I'm sure Kal, also own thousands of multich recordings, and I'm not sure why you automatically attach multich to watching video?
Sure there are a lot of multich live concert recordings around, but the vast majority of multich's are pure music and include no video component.

No, horns aren’t my thing. I have been repeatedly tempted by electrostatics, but they certainly won’t help reproduce my wife’s biggest drum kit.

I have heard several different older models and enjoyed them for what they are good at. The ones I heard where setup well, played strings and fine details very well but never had any oomph. Can a electrostatic have oomph? I dunno.

I know I'll get a lot of push back here but NO, not in my experience. Stat's big strengths are the presentation of inner detail and a large soundstage image. But ask them to produce a significant amount of "oomph" and all you likely to get is a really kool lightshow of arch lightning on the panels.
Blueone, stick with those Salons and a amp with serious muscle into 4 ohms.
If you ever want more oomph, demo a pair of JBL M2's, they're incredible.

 

[Doodski]

If you ever want more oomph, demo a pair of JBL M2's, they're incredible.

Yes, a dream speaker! Great suggestion @Sal1950.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Dump that low budget rig and use the money to upgrade your first class stereo to a first class surround..

I did consider that but decided based on the recordings I enjoy it would be a waste of money for me.
I have listened to some music blurays and films both in stereo and in "low budget" surround (it isn't that low budget I have a Genelec 8341a centre, Meridian rears and a REL Studio sub it just isn't up to the level of my stereo) and found that it wasn't worth it for music but it was in films for the sound effects.

I had considered getting more 8341s for rear and replacing the mains with Genelec 8361/W371 but decided not to.

 

[blueone]

I know I'll get a lot of push back here but NO, not in my experience. Stat's big strengths are the presentation of inner detail and a large soundstage image. But ask them to produce a significant amount of "oomph" and all you likely to get is a really kool lightshow of arch lightning on the panels.

The electrostatics was I got serious about were the SoundLab 745s or 945s. Both are capable of realistic volume levels for acoustic instruments. I never pulled the trigger though, they are huge and so is their price. I came really close once after a couple of hours with a pair of 945s though.

Blueone, stick with those Salons and an amp with serious muscle into 4 ohms.

I use a now out-of-production ATI AT3000. 450W into 4 ohms per channel, which seems adequate.

If you ever want more oomph, demo a pair of JBL M2's, they're incredible.

I've never had the pleasure of hearing a pair.

 

[MRC01]

I played sax for about 3 decades, mostly tenor, and no system can adequately reproduce that live sound in a room. No matter how loud the system might play. Much less any more exuberant instruments. All systems are a compromise, but a worthy compromise to let us enjoy the music we love. (Even though the members here only listen to graphs and test tones )

Flute's my main instrument but I occasionally played bari sax in local groups over the years, nothing professional. Ever heard of tubax? As a sax player you may like this:

 

[MRC01]

... I know I'll get a lot of push back here but NO, not in my experience. Stat's big strengths are the presentation of inner detail and a large soundstage image. But ask them to produce a significant amount of "oomph" and all you likely to get is a really kool lightshow of arch lightning on the panels.

Planar magnetics aren't the same thing, but they have some similar characteristics. I find the big Magnepans are one of the few speakers that have that oomph. Drums sound particularly impressive and acoustic instruments come alive with natural lifelike timbre and dynamics. But the room is as important as the speakers - it requires proper setup in a prepared room.

OTOH, horns just never sounded right to me. Dynamics, sure. But the timbre always sounded wonky to me. Maybe fine for rock or electronic music but not for acoustic or classical. Then again, I never heard really good horns. After hearing big Klipsch speakers many years ago I figured horns just weren't for me and avoided them.