A millennial's rant on classical music

[RayDunzl]

It must be Classical because I'm sure there's a smelly old Bassoon inthere someplace...

Yesssss!

The score call for not less than THREE smelly old bassons!

Hmmm...
Maybe it's Blues since it has harmonicas.

 

[Sal1950]

(it isn't that low budget I have a Genelec 8341a centre, Meridian rears and a REL Studio sub it just isn't up to the level of my stereo)

LOL, knowing you I should have figured that.

and found that it wasn't worth it for music but it was in films for the sound effects.

Personally I don't worry over the film presentation, I got 2 SVS subs and that's mostly whats important for film and effects. LOL
90+ % of my systems use is Music and that comes first so I concentrate (within my budget) to build the multich rig that
will best reproduce an immersive experience. IMHO it's very important that the four corners (and center if possible) are identical.
You would never consider having different speakers for a L & R stereo. If a music based surround system has different voiced
speakers in the base 5 or 7, it can never deliver a proper listening experience with well recorded surround music.
I did the separate system deal for close to 40 years but finding as time passed and the available sources became higher quality
(from LP/VHS, to DVD, and now BluRay at very high resolution datarates) doing the surround system at the level it deserves required me to chose against having 2 rigs. Now for those with unlimited funds and the room to keep them, the answer may be different.

 

[Timcognito]

I played sax for about 3 decades, mostly tenor, and no system can adequately reproduce that live sound in a room. No matter how loud the system might play. Much less any more exuberant instruments. All systems are a compromise, but a worthy compromise to let us enjoy the music we love. (Even though the members here only listen to graphs and test tones )

@Ken1951 FYI, not a player but a veteran of many a club performance, the sax on this one is very realistic to my ears.

Chico Freeman: Spirit Sensitive (1979) India Navigation

Selection: Peace (Horace Silver) . . . Track List A1 Autumn In New York (Vernon Duke) 4:15A2 Peace (Horace Silver) 5:35A3 A Child Is Born (Thad Jones) 7:40B1 It Never Entered My Mind (Billy Hart)…

londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com

 

[Sal1950]

@Ken1951 FYI, not a player but a veteran of many a club performance, the sax on this one is very realistic to my ears.

Did you say Sax ?

 

[Doodski]

OTOH, horns just never sounded right to me. Dynamics, sure. But the timbre always sounded wonky to me. Maybe fine for rock or electronic music but not for acoustic or classical. Then again, I never heard really good horns. After hearing big Klipsch speakers many years ago I figured horns just weren't for me and avoided them.

I have some experience with KLIPSCH Horns. They to me sounded too crisp and sharp but I must admit tambourine sounds coming from them are to die for...LoL.
I have extensive experience with Altec Lansing horns as I ran a active crossover 3-way system with the AL horns as the midrange drivers.
I had the company that I purchased the horns and compression drivers from install the tangerine radial phase plugs and additionally one may select different domes for the compression drivers. The domes range from being constructed for loud concert use to a more refined hi-fi application. I chose the less durable but better sounding domes.
I did not listen to classical music at that time but I can easily say that the AL horns where very convincing and not exaggerated sounding like the KLIPSCH Horns where to me.
The AL metal horns come in different sizes ranging from a very large to a size that can be handheld when the compression drivers are bolted to the horn.
Here is a med sized AL horn with compression driver attached.
If you want to get into horns the AL gear is readily available but according to horn experts there are even smoother sounding horns out there from different companies.

 

[Sal1950]

I have some experience with KLIPSCH Horns. They to me sounded too crisp and sharp but I must admit tambourine sounds coming from them are to die for...LoL.

I ran a pair of Klipsch LaScala's up in Chicago for 32 years.
Like all speakers they had their strengths and weaknesses.
But in all those years I never found a speaker in my price range that made me want to change.
JMHO

 

[Keith_W]

OTOH, horns just never sounded right to me. Dynamics, sure. But the timbre always sounded wonky to me. Maybe fine for rock or electronic music but not for acoustic or classical. Then again, I never heard really good horns. After hearing big Klipsch speakers many years ago I figured horns just weren't for me and avoided them.

There are many poorly designed horns out there, including the Klipsch that you mention. I don't like them either.

Horns are difficult to design because of the narrow frequency range that the horn covers, typically 3-4 octaves. They also "project" into the room and so a nearfield measurement will look different to a measurement taken 1m or 2m away. I have seen people mention that horns have to be 4 way to work properly, and when horns have to cover a wide frequency range, the drivers have to be spaced even further apart due to the size of the horn, which causes more integration problems. If the designer puts together a horn speaker with minimal driver overlap, there will be dips at crossover frequencies. This can result in "honky" coloration that many people hear with horns.

This does not mean that neutral sound from horns is impossible, just more challenging. Even after that, there are still issues with horns that you have to live with, e.g. they never lose that tendency to "project" sound into the room. This is both a plus and a minus. On the plus side, sound has an intensity and physicality that you can hear but won't see in measurements (or at least, I don't know what measurements correspond to this). On the negative side, the phantom image and soundstage is always thrown forward. They are not point source speakers and never seem to do a realistic soundstage.

 

[Doodski]

the phantom image and soundstage is always thrown forward. They are not point source speakers and never seem to do a realistic soundstage.

This I experienced and found to be very enjoyable when listening to horns. @ the time I was a progressive rock listener and the recordings where decent with the imaging easily heard in a listening triangle configuration of ~3m. I believe that the imaging is a post musician playing special effect and it's interaction with the room and speakers means that there isn't a standard for what imaging is. Imaging is a random success or failure because there are so many variable involved in translating what the recording engineers(s) set in the recording and then relying on a random room for effect.

 

[Sal1950]

Even after that, there are still issues with horns that you have to live with, e.g. they never lose that tendency to "project" sound into the room.

You mean in the way that real instruments do.

On the negative side, the phantom image and soundstage is always thrown forward. They are not point source speakers and never seem to do a realistic soundstage.

I believe you may have missed the opportunity of listening to good horns properly set up in the room

 

[Keith_W]

I believe you may have missed the opportunity of listening to good horns properly set up in the room

Ahem. I have owned my horn speaker for almost 16 years

 

[Sal1950]

never seem to do a realistic soundstage.

Ahem. I have owned my horn speaker for almost 16 years

Then I don't know what you have or why you experience this issue. I had my La Scala's about 5' off the back wall, and 3' off the sides, angled to cross over just slightly in front of my head. With them in this position I found their imaging right up there with the best I've ever experienced. They did offer a bit of a "head in a vise" position to enjoy this imaging but I don't find them alone in this aspect. Over the years I've found the speakers that were capable of the best focused image also had a tight sweet spot. The sharpness on the reproduction of some Q-sound recordings could be uncanny, unequaled IME.
YMMV

 

[MRC01]

There are many poorly designed horns out there, including the Klipsch that you mention. I don't like them either.

Horns are difficult to design because of the narrow frequency range that the horn covers, typically 3-4 octaves. ... If the designer puts together a horn speaker with minimal driver overlap, there will be dips at crossover frequencies. This can result in "honky" coloration that many people hear with horns.

That makes sense and reminds me of another thing I didn't like about the Klipsch: it didn't reproduce the highest frequencies. This made transients sound smeared or less crisp, and to a lesser extent negatively impacted the timbre of some instruments.

 

[Keith_W]

Try this, Sal. Buy or borrow a pair of small bookshelf speakers. Place them next to your horns. Listen to them side by side. You will find that a point source speaker like a bookshelf will produce incredible imaging, particularly coaxials like the KEF LS50 or the Genelec 1 series. My horns are like all horns, they are far from a point source. I have to sit a certain distance away before the image comes together, and even then they don't match the little bookshelf speakers.

Of course, those little bookshelf speakers have other drawbacks. It's a good thing I don't care too much about imaging, I was willing to give that up to get that horn sound.

The ultimate horn for me would be a point source horn, like the Danley or Australia's PSE-144. However, they are a bit ugly ... and that is a consideration for me given that my wife doesn't care if it sounds bad, but she will definitely kick up a fuss if it's ugly. Oh well, can't have everything!

 

[Sal1950]

Try this, Sal. Buy or borrow a pair of small bookshelf speakers. Place them next to your horns. Listen to them side by side.

Not sure what "horns" you refer to.
The LaScala's have been gone for 15 years now and my current JBLs are a whole different world.
I've had and owned a number of small bookshelfs over the years> Because of their diminutive size more than anything
they can do an excellent job of visually disappearing but also have many other weaknesses that don't make it long term with me.

 

[Leporello]

I think I am a newfound aficionado of Maher classical music.

Here's some more

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Here's some more

That's a daunting prospect.

 

[MarnixM]

The best recordings of Mahler's symphonies that I have heard are on Channel Classics with Budapest & Fischer

Agree, in particular for No. 4 and No. 7. But Kubelik is better on No.1. Another new contenders: Jurowski (2), Tenn stedt (9) and Dausgaard (10).

 

[Liya]

Personally, I think that a lot of Western art music is boring beyond comprehension. Throughout different periods and styles, there are just a few standout composers, with the rest producing music that's repetitive and uninspired. While I can stomach some Mahler, Bach, Chopin, Shostakovich, or Lutoslawski, a big chunk of - say - 20th-century music is just noise. Recently, there's been a shift towards some sort of new age styled compositions, which I find even worse than the noise of the 20th century. The Hyperion gets credit for trying to record less popular stuff, but it ends up highlighting how mediocre a lot of non-mainstream music really is. And then there's this endless stream of 'me too' soloists, ensembles and orchestras playing the same old compositions over and over again. It's a dead end.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Throughout different periods and styles, there are just a few standout composers, with the rest producing music that's repetitive and uninspired.

The majority of human efforts are "repetitive and uninspired." It is the few standouts that endure and provide enjoyment.

 

[Daverz]

Personally, I think that a lot of Western art music is boring beyond comprehension. Throughout different periods and styles, there are just a few standout composers, with the rest producing music that's repetitive and uninspired. While I can stomach some Mahler, Bach, Chopin, Shostakovich, or Lutoslawski, a big chunk of - say - 20th-century music is just noise. Recently, there's been a shift towards some sort of new age styled compositions, which I find even worse than the noise of the 20th century. The Hyperion gets credit for trying to record less popular stuff, but it ends up highlighting how mediocre a lot of non-mainstream music really is. And then there's this endless stream of 'me too' soloists, ensembles and orchestras playing the same old compositions over and over again. It's a dead end.

Such refined and exclusive taste! I'm just a simpleton and enjoy dozens of obscure 19th and 20th Century composers.