A millennial's rant on classical music

[Doodski]

I played the recording on my music system while she played a duet with herself. It was an extraordinary experience.

That would be astounding. The flute as I learned the day she played at her recital is a very amazing instrument if the musician has the technique and control of it. It is like nothing else I have ever heard. Recordings of the flute are very sweet although in my experience they lack much of what is there when live. The wind through the instrument, the formation of the lips over the hole thingy and just everything is so unique. I want to experience that again...

 

[Robin L]

CD is adequate. Multichannel (SACD, BluRay, Atmos) is better.

I guess it all depends. I listen to a lot of historical recordings and multichannel playback doesn't affect antique monaural recordings. I used to have a 5.1 surround system and it might have been due to the limitations of that particular system, but I found multichannel Classical recordings really weren't all that different from stereo recordings. Usually there was the expected proscenium arch up front with some hall ambience in the back. Nothing to write home about. Pop/Rock multichannel was another thing altogether, sometimes great, sometimes foolish. I now live in a smaller space, using bits from the 5.1 system in a 2.1 configuration and am finding the sound better now than then. Different strokes, I guess.

 

[Sal1950]

Covering and arranging pop for classical/acoustic instruments is common. That may be an entre for those who don't find an interest in classical.

Sweet old upright, glad I didn't have to move it out to the woods for the video recording. !!!

I used to have a 5.1 surround system and it might have been due to the limitations of that particular system, but I found multichannel Classical recordings really weren't all that different from stereo recordings. Usually there was the expected proscenium arch up front with some hall ambience in the back. Nothing to write home about. Pop/Rock multichannel was another thing altogether, sometimes great, sometimes foolish.

The Classical guys generally go nuts when the surround channels are used for anything but ambience.
Since I don't do classical, Kal can address this much better than I, he's a huge enthusiast of multich classical. But anytime I've read about any of the instruments getting separated out from a purely front stage presentation it's been met with a very negative response.

 

[Robin L]

The Classical guys generally go nuts when the surround channels are used for anything but ambience.
Since I don't do classical, Kal can address this much better than I, he's a huge enthusiast of multich classical. But anytime I've read about any of the instruments getting separated out from a purely front stage presentation it's been met with a very negative response.

I know of some multi-choral works intended to be heard in "surround", like Thomas Tallis' "Spem in Alium" and I've recorded choirs that performed that kind of music (in plain-wrap stereo). A group I regularly recorded had an annual concert of polychoral Christmas music, which was wonderful. There are also some other pieces that have offstage effects. Doesn't happen all that often though. I still have a shelf of SACDs and a few DVD-As, three Blu Ray audio discs as well. Most are surround, one third are something other than classical and some of those are very good, like the surround mixes of Beck's "Sea Change" And King Crimson's "Discipline".

 

[Keith_W]

The Classical guys generally go nuts when the surround channels are used for anything but ambience.

That's because that is not how nearly all classical music is performed. I have been to a very very few number of concerts where sound comes from your side or behind you. One example was the 1812 Overture where there were mortars placed around the concert hall (it was a memorable performance, the sound was deafening and at the end of the concert, the hall was filled with gunpowder smoke). Even then, the orchestra was in front of you and you had 10-15 seconds of surround sound. And that's it.

In fact I am thinking of making my own "surround" system for classical by using DSP to delay and attenuate my rear channel speakers for ambience only. It will require purchase of more DAC channels and speakers, so it will be some time in the future

 

[Sal1950]

That's because that is not how nearly all classical music is performed.

Except in a couple very rare cases neither is rock, jazz, country or any other genre I can think of.
And except in very rare cases is classical recorded in a purist, minimalist 2 mic arrangement.
Most all recorded music today is "created" by the artists and engineers involved in the project and the soundstage presentation was their artistic decision. So if they decide to present it in a non-conventional arrangement it is then up to the listener to accept it, or not.
It took a long time for the mono listeners to accept stereo, it's all a fad, bouncing instruments from side to side they said.

 

[rdenney]

Except in a couple very rare cases neither is rock, jazz, country or any other genre I can think of.
And except in very rare cases is classical recorded in a purist, minimalist 2 mic arrangement.
Most all recorded music today is "created" by the artists and engineers involved in the project and the soundstage presentation was their artistic decision. So if they decide to present it in a non-conventional arrangement it is then up to the listener to accept it, or not.
It took a long time for the mono listeners to accept stereo, it's all a fad, bouncing instruments from side to side they said.

Except that the cello and bass sounds come from stage left where they are located, and the violins from stage right. I close my eyes at a concert and I can point to them. But I’m never pointing behind me, or even directly to the side, even though some quantity of reflected sound and reverberation comes from those directions.

To localize an instrument behind me is a parlor trick to make me think I’m sitting on the stage, amidst the musicians. I have plenty of experience knowing what it sounds like on stage, but that’s not what I want to hear on playback. The musicians rarely hear the balanced sound in a large ensemble. That’s why there is a conductor whose job is more than beating time.

Rick “prefers halfway back in the mezzanine, depending on the hall” Denney

 

[Keith_W]

Except in a couple very rare cases neither is rock, jazz, country or any other genre I can think of.
And except in very rare cases is classical recorded in a purist, minimalist 2 mic arrangement.
Most all recorded music today is "created" by the artists and engineers involved in the project and the soundstage presentation was their artistic decision. So if they decide to present it in a non-conventional arrangement it is then up to the listener to accept it, or not.
It took a long time for the mono listeners to accept stereo, it's all a fad, bouncing instruments from side to side they said.

If you listen to those early stereo recordings which were hard panned left and right, then they did have a point about bouncing instruments from side to side

As for the soundstage of "most" recorded music being an artificial creation by the engineers, you are right. But this is not true of classical, most recordings make an effort to preserve the original soundstage. Of course I am aware that the recording engineers use multiple microphones and can create almost any soundstage they want with their DAW's, but the recordings that come out at least sound realistic.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I also love the Abbado/Lucerne series on BluRay discs.

I do too and this comment lead me to having a blissful evening yesterday enjoying 5 and 6 - almost overload even to me a Mahler enthusiast for almost 50 years now.

 

[Sal1950]

I have plenty of experience knowing what it sounds like on stage, but that’s not what I want to hear on playback.

And that's entirely your right to do so.
As it is others to enjoy a different perspective.
Which I have for 50 some years now.
But then I admit I don't do classical, neither live or recorded.
Maybe if I did it might mean more to me.
But then all genre of live concerts put the artists mostly up front?
Personally I find the more creative mixes more enjoyable.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The Classical guys generally go nuts when the surround channels are used for anything but ambience.
Since I don't do classical, Kal can address this much better than I, he's a huge enthusiast of multich classical. But anytime I've read about any of the instruments getting separated out from a purely front stage presentation it's been met with a very negative response.

Most of my recordings are stereo and my preference for "high fidelity" is more to an experience than anything else and I have never experienced a live concert from the middle of the stage, classical, folk or rock.
I have been intrigued by Q-sound 3D effects on stereo recordings like Roger Waters but that worked fine in stereo on my system most of the time (I used it to for evaluation).
I mainly listen to stereo since that is most of my recordings.
I do have sub, centre and rear for films and use them for any multi channel recordings that come my way but it is a low budget solution, spending the same on multiple channels as I did on two makes absolutely no financial sens, given the thousands of stereo recordings I own and the fact I probably only watch multi channel video once or twice a month.

 

[rdenney]

And that's entirely your right to do so.
As it is others to enjoy a different perspective.
Which I have for 50 some years now.
But then I admit I don't do classical, neither live or recorded.
Maybe if I did it might mean more to me.
But then all genre of live concerts put the artists mostly up front?
Personally I find the more creative mixes more enjoyable.

A lot of experience with other genres heard live will be in small venues where the audience or club attendees are much closer to the performers. That will affect the presentation of the surround effect.

I’m with you on artificial separation, which I abhor. FM radio has been the worst about that, “enhancing” stereo so that everything is either 100% left, 100% right, or evenly divided to put it in the middle.

Rick “listens to live classical from far enough to easily see the whole orchestra” Denney

 

[pablolie]

 

[blueone]

That's because that is not how nearly all classical music is performed. I have been to a very very few number of concerts where sound comes from your side or behind you. One example was the 1812 Overture where there were mortars placed around the concert hall (it was a memorable performance, the sound was deafening and at the end of the concert, the hall was filled with gunpowder smoke). Even then, the orchestra was in front of you and you had 10-15 seconds of surround sound. And that's it.

That is truly nutty. I can't imagine how many laws would be broken by a stunt like that in the US. It also weird that performances dependent on hearing acuity would put so many peoples' hearing at risk with deafening noise levels, including the musicians'.

Were you warned about the explosives before you went to the performance?

 

[Keith_W]

That is truly nutty. I can't imagine how many laws would be broken by a stunt like that in the US. It also weird that performances dependent on hearing acuity would put so many peoples' hearing at risk with deafening noise levels, including the musicians'.

Were you warned about the explosives before you went to the performance?

Warned? It was prominently advertised, it was the reason I went! I have to say that concert was in the 90's, it was a more relaxed time.

 

[Robin L]

That is truly nutty. I can't imagine how many laws would be broken by a stunt like that in the US. It also weird that performances dependent on hearing acuity would put so many peoples' hearing at risk with deafening noise levels, including the musicians'.

Were you warned about the explosives before you went to the performance?

 

[Sal1950]

Warned? It was prominently advertised, it was the reason I went! I have to say that concert was in the 90's, it was a more relaxed time.

Yea, that cannon explosion has been the audiophiles Holy Grail since Christ lost his sandals.
Can you rig handle it? Back in the day it was the big test of needle tracking on vinyl.
Along came the Telarc CD, and it was the ultimate test for bass extension and power of a serious system.

"The 1812 CD (from June 1984, Vol.7 No.3):
This was reviewed in its analog form in Vol.4 No.5, and there is little to add to that review except to say that the hard-to-track cannon shots on analog are absolutely lethal on CD—though not hard to track! If your power amp is capable of ripping your woofers apart, the cannonshots will give it the opportunity to do so. Telarc's warning in the booklet (and on the album cover) should be heeded. Despite the in-house presence of two 200Wpc power amplifiers, I have yet to hear these appalling thuds reproduced at higher than modest levels without obvious evidence of something overloading. And if anyone can assemble a system that will reproduce those sounds cleanly, and without attenuating their low end, I would not at all be surprised to hear about broken windows.

The recording is typical Telarc, with all the positive and slightly negative things implied thereby. As usual there is that tendency towards steeliness when the whole violin section digs in, but considering the bulk of material released on CD to date, this is one of the best orchestral CDs you can buy. As with the analog version, this is still an almost ridiculous challenge to a reproducing system-a challenge which, if met, would prove nothing of musical worth about the system's fidelity.

The attention this recording has received because of the 1812 has tended to obscure the fact that the Capriccio is one of the best renditions of this warhorse that has been recorded in recent years—better in some respects than the one with Fiedler on the Crystal Clear label. The Cossack Dance, on the other hand, is a bore.—J. Gordon Holt"

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[Ken1951]

(It was also a very instructive reminder of how loud real musical instruments are in residential sized rooms.)

I played sax for about 3 decades, mostly tenor, and no system can adequately reproduce that live sound in a room. No matter how loud the system might play. Much less any more exuberant instruments. All systems are a compromise, but a worthy compromise to let us enjoy the music we love. (Even though the members here only listen to graphs and test tones )

 

[blueone]

I played sax for about 3 decades, mostly tenor, and no system can adequately reproduce that live sound in a room. No matter how loud the system might play. Much less any more exuberant instruments. All systems are a compromise, but a worthy compromise to let us enjoy the music we love.

A saxophone belongs in a large venue. My listening room is ~8000cu-ft, but I wouldn't want to listen to an energetically played sax in it. Too loud. My system can't accurately reproduce my wife's rock drum kit either, especially if she's playing Wipe Out. The system does really well with my live recordings of various pianos, acoustic guitars, violin, acoustic bass, congas, cello, trombone, and tuba. But trumpets and saxophones... nah.

 

[Sal1950]

I played sax for about 3 decades, mostly tenor, and no system can adequately reproduce that live sound in a room. No matter how loud the system might play. Much less any more exuberant instruments. All systems are a compromise, but a worthy compromise to let us enjoy the music we love. (Even though the members here only listen to graphs and test tones )

True, but some good horns can come close.