A millennial's rant on classical music

[Keith_W]

I'm trying to remember the book I read concerning Star Wars and John Williams scores for various movies. The author attempted to make a case for considering William's scores as proper "Classical" scores while denigrating avant garde Classical/Concert music as some sort of a communist plot.

It's not far from the truth. John Cage was an actual communist. I don't really care about the politics or personal beliefs of the composer, all I care about is whether they wrote good music. After all I love Bach's religious music (even though I am an atheist), I love Wagner (even though he was an antisemite), and I like Khachaturian (who was a member of the Communist Party). I even listen to Karajan who was a member of the Nazi Party.

But John Cage's music was awful. There are two extremes with Classical music - on one extreme are things that are too populist and too commercial (like John Williams) and on the other are the avant-garde weird stuff that nobody understands (like John Cage).

There are "Pop" Classics I like, but they are more like Sir Thomas Beecham's "Bon Bons", short, sugary works suitable for encores. If I want pure orchestral bombast, I'll take Bruckner, thank you very much.

Interesting you should say that. Last night I lifted my self-imposed ban on Mahler* and listened to his 2nd symphony. It was wonderful.

(* I stopped listening to Mahler because his music is too depressing, it really drives you to drink)

 

[Robin L]

It's not far from the truth. John Cage was an actual communist. I don't really care about the politics or personal beliefs of the composer, all I care about is whether they wrote good music. After all I love Bach's religious music (even though I am an atheist), I love Wagner (even though he was an antisemite), and I like Khachaturian (who was a member of the Communist Party). I even listen to Karajan who was a member of the Nazi Party.

But John Cage's music was awful. There are two extremes with Classical music - on one extreme are things that are too populist and too commercial (like John Williams) and on the other are the avant-garde weird stuff that nobody understands (like John Cage).



Interesting you should say that. Last night I lifted my self-imposed ban on Mahler* and listened to his 2nd symphony. It was wonderful.

(* I stopped listening to Mahler because his music is too depressing, it really drives you to drink)

There's some Cage that actually sounds like music, music called the "Number Pieces" from late in his life. One of my favorite pianists - Artur Schnabel - wrote some of the most "difficult", unlistenable compositions ever. He went for pure atonality, no system apparently. And then there's the highly abstruse Elliot Carter who happened to be a friend of Phil Lesh of the Grateful Dead and lived to be over 100. Carter's music is notoriously difficult. Phil Lesh conducted one of his pieces at a Berkeley Symphony Orchestra benefit concert I happened to record for KPFA. I was impressed - he managed to make it sound like music.

The Second symphony of Mahler is wonderful. It's at its best when heard from a really good seat in a good concert hall. The 5th symphony starts with a funeral march but ends in joy and the 4th is a happy piece that ends with a child's view of heaven. But you probably want to avoid the 6th, the 9th and Das Lied von der Erde. Interesting, Das Lied von der Erde begins with the drinking song of Earth's sorrow.

 

[Sal1950]

I tried for many years to "get into" classical music, I joined some BBC "appreciate classical CD of the month" club, etc; but it just never came together for me. Great classical for me is the best of Progressive Rock, the ones with a symphony orchestra backing a great rock band from ELO to Jethro Tull to Talking Heads to The Moody Blues to Alan Parsons Project, etc, etc, etc. I do love the sound of
a huge symphony orchestra playing, it's just the classical music that goes nowhere for me.

The last time I visited my parents, my dad proudly told me at the dinner table that he bought tickets for us to go listen to an orchestral performance of John Williams' Star Wars since he knew I liked classical music.

Funny a few of you just mentioned that. The John Williams - Live In Vienna video concert with Anne Mutter gets played
a few times a year here. Lord that chick can jam on that fiddle. A really well recorded Atmos performance though a bit
too ambiance oriented for my mastering tastes. And the only "classical" recording I can think of that gets spun here at all.

 

[Daverz]

But John Cage's music was awful.

Besides 4'33", can you name a work by Cage that you find awful?

I find his Sonatas and Interludes for prepared piano to be quite charming, for example. Since even the best composers produced clunkers, I would want to hear a few more representative works before I passed such a blanket judgement on a composer.

As for Mahler's music being depressing, I've heard that before, but it's just not true for the most part. Most of his symphonies have uplifting endings. The exceptions are No. 6, No. 9 and Das Lied von der Erde. And I would say those works provide emotional catharsis rather than being depressing. (Oops, that was in response to Robin L).

 

[David James]

I haven't read the 36 pages of posts, and I suspect the OP is long gone, but I can't suppress an eye roll when I hear people profess to be ignorant of some centuries old art form with likely millions of existing recordings and written scores, and then criticize the expressive forms, aesthetics, conventions, etc in the most basic way. Before consumerism turned most cultural practice into a commodity with consumer appeal governing the mode of expression, the audience was assumed to have some cultural familiarity or theoretical knowledge. In other words it takes some work to be able to access much of the classical repertoire and make any sense of it. its not unlike a foreign language. Cultural expression is often codified to speak to its own and if you want in you need to learn the code. That is why there are books and videos and lectures on music appreciation. Additionally, there is an broad range of function for the music we have historical knowledge of ranging from worship music in the medieval church, dance music in the courts of the nobility, 19th century opera for public consumption, conceptual artistic expressing in modernity, and so on. Simplistic generalizations of what "classical music" is baffles me.

This said, there is no requirement for anyone to listen to any kind of music, or music at all. I personally listen to classical from all periods from medieval to contemporary (there is a lot of very interesting music being written today, and I suspect some of the posters I read here would be suprised to know that some of those composers have even worked with huge contemporary musicians as well as writing esoteric and conceptual "art music"), as well as death metal, punk, dance music, classic rock, old country (which I even play, somewhat), hipster bands, Jazz, musical theatre, and on and on. I've also gone through periods of years where I listened to almost no classical because it just wasn't where my heart was at the time.

Obviously we live in a world of dizzying choice and social conventions are not binding as the once were so if people have no desire to dig in to classical they probably shouldn't worry about it. Its not like you will be banished from society.

 

[Axo1989]

It's not far from the truth. John Cage was an actual communist.

Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Congress for Cultural Freedom? No, John Cage wasn't a communist. Are you thinking of Cardew?

I don't really care about the politics or personal beliefs of the composer, all I care about is whether they wrote good music. After all I love Bach's religious music (even though I am an atheist), I love Wagner (even though he was an antisemite), and I like Khachaturian (who was a member of the Communist Party). I even listen to Karajan who was a member of the Nazi Party.

Yeah I pretty much agree with you there. There are some modern groups I'll avoid on that basis, but historic associations not so much.

But John Cage's music was awful. There are two extremes with Classical music - on one extreme are things that are too populist and too commercial (like John Williams) and on the other are the avant-garde weird stuff that nobody understands (like John Cage).

That's a matter of taste, of course. We had a fairly long thread about ≥ 20th century classical, starting with an OP who couldn't fathom enjoyment of Messiaen. Personally, I prefer to listen to Cage than any of the actual classical composers (meaning the specific period, not the umbrella term). Avant-garde weird stuff is the best stuff, and certainly worth bothering with (imho of course).

Interesting you should say that. Last night I lifted my self-imposed ban on Mahler* and listened to his 2nd symphony. It was wonderful.

(* I stopped listening to Mahler because his music is too depressing, it really drives you to drink)

Haha, blues is depressing, or country, Mahler can be dark. Which is fun.

 

[Frank Dernie]

(* I stopped listening to Mahler because his music is too depressing, it really drives you to drink)

When I first discovered, and was blown away by, Mahler in the 1960s due to my love of Kathleen Ferrier I didn't find it depressing at all, just beautiful, but I did know someone who decided he didn't need to live any longer after hearing "Das lied von der Erde"!

I have multiple recordings of most Mahler works now - they were few and far between back then but lots of choice now.

It probably helps that I am not a German speaker.

 

[Doodski]

When I first discovered, and was blown away by, Mahler in the 1960s due to my love of Kathleen Ferrier I didn't find it depressing at all, just beautiful, but I did know someone who decided he didn't need to live any longer after hearing "Das lied von der Erde"!

Your commentary made me curious and so I read the Wiki regarding Mahler and then I listened to Das lied von der Erde as best as I am capable via using YouTube as the source. It's shockingly dynamic, to me not symphonic and I recognize the complexity of it although I am simply not able to appreciate the overall art form that it is because I have never heard this sort of music before. I don't even know if I could ever manage learning about this type of music because I think it would require many hours of listening to clean my ears out from the type of music that I listen to presently.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Your commentary made me curious and so I read the Wiki regarding Mahler and then I listened to Das lied von der Erde as best as I am capable via using YouTube as the source. It's shockingly dynamic, to me not symphonic and I recognize the complexity of it although I am simply not able to appreciate the overall art form that it is because I have never heard this sort of music before. I don't even know if I could ever manage learning about this type of music because I think it would require many hours of listening to clean my ears out from the type of music that I listen to presently.

Many hours indeed!
That would not be my recommendation for a Mahler introduction.
Maybe the 4th Symphony and for beautiful melody I love the songs.

This last could be my favourite piece of music of all. It is one of the sad ones though...

 

[Doodski]

Many hours indeed!
That would not be my recommendation for a Mahler introduction.
Maybe the 4th Symphony and for beautiful melody I love the songs.

Mahler - Rückert-Lieder : Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen | Claudio Abbado | Lucerne 2009
Now this is much more my speed for sure.
I appreciate this and will pursue it tomorrow with headphones on while I file my tax return after Chinese lunch and coffee.
This will be a treat and I look forward to listening to it again.
In fact because any new bookmark that I add to the 3098 music bookmarks that I use presently will be lost in the quantity of them I will start a classical music folder so I can make a proper effort to get into more of this wonderful music style. Thanks!

Gustav Mahler - Kindertotenlieder
This piece is also very digestible for me as well.
I feel the need to research the piece(s) and understand their history, date of origin and whatever else that I can glean from a Google of both of them.
The textual information I find to be as interesting as the music when it comes to classical music listening.
It's a history lesson of musical appreciation and I have noticed that when peeps that are very involved in classical music discuss it they are often talking of the historical significance, associated people of historical importance and that makes for a comprehensive and intriguing perspective.
Thanks again!

I think on a first experience first impressions basis that my favorite piece tonight is the Mahler - Rückert-Lieder : Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen | Claudio Abbado | Lucerne 2009.

 

[Doodski]

Hmmzer...
This better Mahler music is working out well for me.
I was listening to the first piece and quickly bang it was over and I was missing it when it ended.
I am presently listening to Ferrier - Kindertotenlieder 3 - Wenn dein Mütterlein and it seems fine for me if not a little slow but I suspect I just need to review the lyrics to understand the movement and mood and then I'll be off and running.
Again! It ended and I was not finished with it.
So now into Gustav Mahler - Kindertotenlieder where I may go about my matters and have a long 26:20 listening session to see how my feelings jive with the music.
Thankkk youuu...

 

[Daverz]

I tried for many years to "get into" classical music, I joined some BBC "appreciate classical CD of the month" And the only "classical" recording I can think of that gets spun here at all.



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"CD of the month" sounds like a bit too much like force feeding. I would definitely consider John Williams part of the classical tradition. His music wouldn't be possible without the Romantic composers like Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, and 20th Century composers like Holst, Vaughan Williams, Stravinsky, Prokofiev and Shostakovich. To say nothing of the Golden Age film composers like Korngold and Waxman.

When I got into classical music as a teenager it was via music in films, like Woody Allen's use of Prokofiev in Love and Death.

(sorry, this youtube clip does not sound very good)

 

[Frank Dernie]

Kindertotenlieder

These are all sad.
He lost a daughter from Scarlet fever when she was very young.

 

[Daverz]

Your commentary made me curious and so I read the Wiki regarding Mahler and then I listened to Das lied von der Erde as best as I am capable via using YouTube as the source. It's shockingly dynamic, to me not symphonic and I recognize the complexity of it although I am simply not able to appreciate the overall art form that it is because I have never heard this sort of music before. I don't even know if I could ever manage learning about this type of music because I think it would require many hours of listening to clean my ears out from the type of music that I listen to presently.

Yeah, the first time I heard Das Lied I was completely bowled over by it. (It was the Ferrier/Patzak/Walter recording on Decca. I didn't even notice that it wasn't stereo.)

 

[Doodski]

Yeah, the first time I heard Das Lied I was completely bowled over by it. (It was the Ferrier/Patzak/Walter recording on Decca. I didn't even notice that it wasn't stereo.)

I was cringing/apprehensive and felt something unpleasant was going to happen as I heard the dynamics and that was the last thing that I expected. It was stressful...LoL..
I'm being a pussy but it really felt that way at times. It made the hard rock stuff that I listen to sound soft and melodic.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I was cringing/apprehensive and felt something unpleasant was going to happen as I heard the dynamics and that was the last thing that I expected. It was stressful...LoL..
I'm being a pussy but it really felt that way at times. It made the hard rock stuff that I listen to sound soft and melodic.

Mahler’s music is very dynamic, far more than most record companies are prepared to release to the public for use on normal playback kit, unfortunately, so every recording I know is compressed to an extent, though nowhere near modern pop.

One of the joys of it is one moment a vast orchestra is playing and the next just one instrument.

 

[Doodski]

Mahler’s music is very dynamic, far more than most record companies are prepared to release to the public for use on normal playback kit, unfortunately, so every recording I know is compressed to an extent, though nowhere near modern pop.

IC. That piece that I listened to is testament of the extreme dynamics and I did not sense compression as it did sound very good in the terms of instruments separation.

One of the joys of it is one moment a vast orchestra is playing and the next just one instrument.

I am now very interested in what it would sound like on as for an example some monster vintage JBL home speakers that have vast dynamic range and efficiency as well as prodigious amounts of low end. The room filling aspect of that listening would be I suspect amazing and less stressful that Sennheiser headphones.

 

[ahofer]

I haven't read the 36 pages of posts, and I suspect the OP is long gone, but I can't suppress an eye roll when I hear people profess to be ignorant of some centuries old art form with likely millions of existing recordings and written scores, and then criticize the expressive forms, aesthetics, conventions, etc in the most basic way. Before consumerism turned most cultural practice into a commodity with consumer appeal governing the mode of expression, the audience was assumed to have some cultural familiarity or theoretical knowledge. In other words it takes some work to be able to access much of the classical repertoire and make any sense of it. its not unlike a foreign language. Cultural expression is often codified to speak to its own and if you want in you need to learn the code. That is why there are books and videos and lectures on music appreciation. Additionally, there is an broad range of function for the music we have historical knowledge of ranging from worship music in the medieval church, dance music in the courts of the nobility, 19th century opera for public consumption, conceptual artistic expressing in modernity, and so on. Simplistic generalizations of what "classical music" is baffles me.

This said, there is no requirement for anyone to listen to any kind of music, or music at all. I personally listen to classical from all periods from medieval to contemporary (there is a lot of very interesting music being written today, and I suspect some of the posters I read here would be suprised to know that some of those composers have even worked with huge contemporary musicians as well as writing esoteric and conceptual "art music"), as well as death metal, punk, dance music, classic rock, old country (which I even play, somewhat), hipster bands, Jazz, musical theatre, and on and on. I've also gone through periods of years where I listened to almost no classical because it just wasn't where my heart was at the time.

Obviously we live in a world of dizzying choice and social conventions are not binding as the once were so if people have no desire to dig in to classical they probably shouldn't worry about it. Its not like you will be banished from society.

My take is that if he took the trouble to start and continue the thread, he *wants* to dig in to classical music. Go figure.

 

[MRC01]

I don't doubt the integrity and effort put into the classical recordings. I can't hear all the stuff like I can when it is live and that makes it annoying. Something like a 3 pc jazz recording or rock group with special effects and stuff seems to be able to be conveyed without me sensing loss of definition and bad separation of instruments. The rock stuff is mostly instruments that I have no idea what they actually sound like so I accept them and the jazz stuff comes through loud and clear but classical to me is a hash of sounds. That's why I don't purchase classical music releases. I wish it where otherwise because more is better for me.

Small ensemble works often sound more convincing - easier to record and less demanding of the playback system. Sonatas, piano trios, quartets, sextets, etc.

Hmmzer...
This better Mahler music is working out well for me.
I was listening to the first piece and quickly bang it was over and I was missing it when it ended.
...

The best recordings of Mahler's symphonies that I have heard are on Channel Classics with Budapest & Fischer.

 

[Robin L]

Besides 4'33", can you name a work by Cage that you find awful?

I find his Sonatas and Interludes for prepared piano to be quite charming, for example. Since even the best composers produced clunkers, I would want to hear a few more representative works before I passed such a blanket judgement on a composer.

As for Mahler's music being depressing, I've heard that before, but it's just not true for the most part. Most of his symphonies have uplifting endings. The exceptions are No. 6, No. 9 and Das Lied von der Erde. And I would say those works provide emotional catharsis rather than being depressing. (Oops, that was in response to Robin L).

Regarding 6, 9 and Das Lied von der Erde: my grandfather had a massive stroke after I first heard the LPs I bought of the 6th, so I have a Mahler like superstition around that piece. When I think of Mahler's 9th I have to think about Bruno Walter's recording (the first) with the Vienna Philharmonic, 1938 just before the Anchluss. As regards Das Lied von der Erde I think of the great recording led by Bruno Walter featuring Kathleen Ferrier, recorded shortly after she got word that her breast cancer had returned, which would kill her soon thereafter. So while I have heard emotional catharsis from these works and don't allow these backstories to prevent me from listening to these works, there are still these things that shadow these particular works.