2.1 DSP System Without AVR?

[staticV3]

If you use DIRAC on the PC, does it have its own music player for high-definition audio so that the room corrections are applied to the music being sent to the DAC over USB?

See here: https://www.dirac.com/live/studio-audio-for-creatives/

 

[Henryk]

See here: https://www.dirac.com/live/studio-audio-for-creatives/

"Standalone correction processes all audio from applications on Windows and macOS devices."
Just what I needed to know - thanks for directing me there!

 

[Deleted member 48726]

MiniDSP 2x4HD
MiniDSP Flex

The DDRC24 is a 2x4HD with Dirac Live.

 

[Ron Texas]

The DDRC24 is a 2x4HD with Dirac Live.

I'm using a 2x4HD to integrate 2 powered subs with my LS50's. Maybe it doesn't have SOTA SINAD, but it works like a charm. There is no noise with low efficiency LS50's.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I'm using a 2x4HD to integrate 2 powered subs with my LS50's. Maybe it doesn't have SOTA SINAD, but it works like a charm. There is no noise with low efficiency LS50's.

Who cares about the SINAD value when its good enough. There's zero noise out of my big Kappas and I even use a 32 dB gain high power amp as well.

Let the golden ears fight on the top of SINAD hill..

 

[Ricwa]

If you use DIRAC on the PC, does it have its own music player for high-definition audio so that the room corrections are applied to the music being sent to the DAC over USB?

A PC gives you the most flexibility. The downside is it also requires the most configuration. You can run any music player software you want. For me, I’m strictly stereo music listening. My setup (on a Mac) is Roon Server -> uBACCH XTC plugin -> Dirac with 2 input channels and 6 channels of USB out to the RME ADI-2/4 Pro (I run 4 subs). The RME only has 4 DAC channels but you can run 6 or 8 channels USB and pass thru the additional channels digitally. In a sense, the RME can act as a DDC and run USB channels 5 and 6 to coax or optical out and into a second (cheap SMSL D0100 DAC) to handle subs 3 and 4. I use the RME’s remote for volume and left-right balance and an iPad to control the Roon server running on the Mac.

 

[JeremyFife]

If you use DIRAC on the PC, does it have its own music player for high-definition audio so that the room corrections are applied to the music being sent to the DAC over USB?

Essentially, yes. Your PC sends a modified digital signal to your DAC. The modifications incorporate Dirac's adjustments. Your DAC just accepts the digital signal as a source.

 

[Henryk]

Essentially, yes. Your PC sends a modified digital signal to your DAC. The modifications incorporate Dirac's adjustments. Your DAC just accepts the digital signal as a source.

Speaking of DAC's, at what point do they start having diminishing returns?
As was mentioned previously, some of the best SINAD ranking units are $1,000-2,000.
Then, of course, you have miniDSP products well under that WITH DSP to boot.

I've heard it said that DAC "quality" is one of the hardest to discern.
Are they a problem that's been solved, and almost anything half-way decent will do?

 

[JeremyFife]

Speaking of DAC's, at what point do they start having diminishing returns?
As was mentioned previously, some of the best SINAD ranking units are $1,000-2,000.
Then, of course, you have miniDSP products well under that WITH DSP to boot.

I've heard it said that DAC "quality" is one of the hardest to discern.
Are they a problem that's been solved, and almost anything half-way decent will do?

Technically, DACs from a few 100 (£, €, $) perform to a level far better than we can hear - solved problem and has been for years.
The miniDSP Flex is below SOTA (110 sinad I think) as a DAC but still completely transparent audibly.
Have a look at the Review Index.
After that, you pay for features (balanced, EQ) and manufacturing or aftercare quality - which is why RME is so well thought of.

 

[Henryk]

Technically, DACs from a few 100 (£, €, $) perform to a level far better than we can hear - solved problem and has been for years.
The miniDSP Flex is below SOTA (110 sinad I think) as a DAC but still completely transparent audibly.
Have a look at the Review Index.
After that, you pay for features (balanced, EQ) and manufacturing or aftercare quality - which is why RME is so well thought of.

What level of SINAD is considered completely audibly transparent?
...so I know what to look for when going through the reviews.

 

[JeremyFife]

What level of SINAD is considered completely audibly transparent?
...so I know what to look for when going through the reviews.

I believe the threshold for audibility (ref SINAD) is 85 ... i.e. really, really (really) far below any DAC we're talking about. This is a solved problem!!

Obviously, it's not quite that simple and you should never think that one measurement describes everything you need. SINAD is a handy indicator, it's not enough. Read some reviews and see what is being picked out

This is worthwhile:
Thread 'Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements' https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

 

[Henryk]

I believe the threshold for audibility (ref SINAD) is 85 ... i.e. really, really (really) far below any DAC we're talking about. This is a solved problem!!

Obviously, it's not quite that simple and you should never think that one measurement describes everything you need. SINAD is a handy indicator, it's not enough. Read some reviews and see what is being picked out

This is worthwhile:
Thread 'Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements' https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

That thread was absolute gold - thank you!

Could I run one more thing past you?
If I'm remembering what I read correctly, professional active monitors like Neumann need significant voltage from the XLR's coming out of the DAC.
Is that true? If so, it sounds like the RME ADI-2 FS or other "pro-level" DAC's will narrow down my options if I go the active monitor route.

 

[JeremyFife]

That thread was absolute gold - thank you!

Could I run one more thing past you?
If I'm remembering what I read correctly, professional active monitors like Neumann need significant voltage from the XLR's coming out of the DAC.
Is that true? If so, it sounds like the RME ADI-2 FS or other "pro-level" DAC's will narrow down my options if I go the active monitor route.

No worries ... remember that I'm just an interested layman here, so check what I say

Firstly, no such thing as a 'professional' monitor: there are just speakers, some are active and some are passive.

The voltage difference you raise is to do with balanced vs single-ended connection. By convention, single ended output is around 2v (apologies if I get the units wrong) and balanced output is higher at 4v.

If a DAC has balanced output, then it will (should) be putting out the correct signal for any balanced input; whether that's a power amp or active speakers.
Amir's reviews all discuss the output levels.

Don't worry too much about this - a single ended DAC can still drive a balanced device fine, just not to the same levels. In normal use it's not a real concern.

 

[Willem]

What is your current set up? If you are already using a computer as your only source, the cheapest and simplest solution is to use REW to create some filters and load those into the free Equalizer Apo on the computer (or something similar on a MAC). That is what I did for my desktop system. Whether you use the computer's own internal DAC or an external one is immaterial, other than that an external one costs some (not much) money and may be marginally better, depending on the quality of the computer's internal DAC. Getting one with a volume control makes life easier. Even a pretty cheap external usb DAC will be sonically perfect.
If you think you want a better/different room equalization system, you have plenty of choice, depending on the hardware requirements. There is Dirac, Multi Sub Optimizer for very good results but a steep learning curve, or alternatively various DSpeaker products if you want something plug and play. And this is just the beginning. Finally, for good in-room response you almost invariably need at least two (mono) subwoofers.

 

[Henryk]

No worries ... remember that I'm just an interested layman here, so check what I say

Firstly, no such thing as a 'professional' monitor: there are just speakers, some are active and some are passive.

The voltage difference you raise is to do with balanced vs single-ended connection. By convention, single ended output is around 2v (apologies if I get the units wrong) and balanced output is higher at 4v.

If a DAC has balanced output, then it will (should) be putting out the correct signal for any balanced input; whether that's a power amp or active speakers.
Amir's reviews all discuss the output levels.

Don't worry too much about this - a single ended DAC can still drive a balanced device fine, just not to the same levels. In normal use it's not a real concern.

I suppose when I use the word "professional", I'm referring to gear used by people who make their living in audio (Neumann and Genelec, from what I've read here). They're usually attached to other pieces of audio equipment which are rack-mounted. This - to my mind - is a seperate category of audio products, different from consumer equipment for use in a home. I don't want to get caught up in pedantry though, and I do see where you're coming from. Please excuse me if I used the wrong words, or if my disctinction between 'professional' and 'consumer' is erroneous

In Amir's review of the RME ADI-2 DAC he said that it can output at 7v, which will better interface with high quality amplifiers to get the best performance; The SINAD improved at 7v too. When I read this, I remembered what I heard about Neumann active monitors doing best with more voltage going to their XLR analog input.

I understand that this may not result in a large performance difference, as Amir likes to tell us about even the most marginal performance improvements which can be had. However, on the whole, does a DAC which can provide increased voltage over its XLR outputs interface better with Neumann/Genelec active monitors and higher quality consumer amplifiers?

What is your current set up? If you are already using a computer as your only source, the cheapest and simplest solution is to use REW to create some filters and load those into the free Equalizer Apo on the computer (or something similar on a MAC). That is what I did for my desktop system. Whether you use the computer's own internal DAC or an external one is immaterial, other than that an external one costs some (not much) money and may be marginally better, depending on the quality of the computer's internal DAC. Getting one with a volume control makes life easier. Even a pretty cheap external usb DAC will be sonically perfect.
If you think you want a better/different room equalization system, you have plenty of choice, depending on the hardware requirements. There is Dirac, Multi Sub Optimizer for very good results but a steep learning curve, or alternatively various DSpeaker products if you want something plug and play. And this is just the beginning. Finally, for good in-room response you almost invariably need at least two (mono) subwoofers.

Yep, computer is my only source and most likely will stay that way.

So, is DIRAC essentially doing the exact same thing that REW + Equalizer APO does, only more automated?
I was under the impression that solutions like DIRAC were doing more than just applying EQ to the digital signal.
Am I wrong?

 

[tmocke]

Hello,

I want to "upgrade" or try something in my 2.1 system and I am slightly overwhelmed with choices.

Current 2.1 system:
Sources - TV and turntable.
Passive speakers - ASW Cantius 404.
Subwoofer - Arendal 1961 1s (sealed).
DAC - Revox s20 5.1 "processor"
Amplifier - Revox s25 (integrated with phono stage).

Amplifier and DAC both makes 50Hz hum, that is audible on couch and is very annoying. And that is the reason to try something new.
I will remove Revox DAC and amplifier and replace it with these 3 options. All numbered by priority:

Option 1 (I want this the most):
1. MiniDSP Flex balanced (bonus room calibration and proper subwoofer integration)
2. Pro-Ject phono box s3 B - balanced in/out phono stage
3. Boxem 4215/e2 - or other power amp, most likely Purifi based. Or something old school. Or active speakers...

Option 2 (cheaper):
1. WIIM Pro Plus (bonus - streamer)
2. Cambridge Audio Alva Solo - phono stage
3. Boxem 4215/e2 - or other power amp, most likely Purifi based. Or something old school. Or active speakers...

Option 3 (expensive):
1. Matrix mini-i 4 pro (bonus - streamer)
2. Cambridge Audio Alva Solo - phono stage
3. Boxem 4215/e2 - or other power amp, most likely Purifi based. Or something old school. Or active speakers...

What to choose? Any other option?
The biggest question is DAC + Preamp with analog and digital input + volume control.

Really appreciate the help!

 

[RosalieTheDog]

Hello,

I want to "upgrade" or try something in my 2.1 system and I am slightly overwhelmed with choices.

Current 2.1 system:
Sources - TV and turntable.
Passive speakers - ASW Cantius 404.
Subwoofer - Arendal 1961 1s (sealed).
DAC - Revox s20 5.1 "processor"
Amplifier - Revox s25 (integrated with phono stage).

Amplifier and DAC both makes 50Hz hum, that is audible on couch and is very annoying. And that is the reason to try something new.
I will remove Revox DAC and amplifier and replace it with these 3 options. All numbered by priority:

Option 1 (I want this the most):
1. MiniDSP Flex balanced (bonus room calibration and proper subwoofer integration)
2. Pro-Ject phono box s3 B - balanced in/out phono stage
3. Boxem 4215/e2 - or other power amp, most likely Purifi based. Or something old school. Or active speakers...

Option 2 (cheaper):
1. WIIM Pro Plus (bonus - streamer)
2. Cambridge Audio Alva Solo - phono stage
3. Boxem 4215/e2 - or other power amp, most likely Purifi based. Or something old school. Or active speakers...

Option 3 (expensive):
1. Matrix mini-i 4 pro (bonus - streamer)
2. Cambridge Audio Alva Solo - phono stage
3. Boxem 4215/e2 - or other power amp, most likely Purifi based. Or something old school. Or active speakers...

What to choose? Any other option?
The biggest question is DAC + Preamp with analog and digital input + volume control.

Really appreciate the help!

Option 1 is the best for proper integration of a 2.1 system. However, you need to calculate in also the cost of a microphone and microphone stand.
Why do you prefer the MiniDSP Flex balanced, which is more expensive than the RCA version? I also don't see XLR input in your Arendal.

Since TV is your source, it might be a good idea to wait for the Flex Home Theatre with HDMI input.

If you are concerned about adding streaming, go for the much cheaper Wiim mini. The Pro Plus does not have advantages if you don't need Chromecast and are going to use the DAC of the MiniDSP.

 

[dualazmak]

Although quite belated, I just came across with this thread.

I hope and assume my PC-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier stereo audio project would be of your reference and interest.
You would please find here the latest total system setup (as of August 3, 2023); I use DSP software EKIO as system-wide DSP(XO/EQ/Delay) control center.

 

[tmocke]

Option 1 is the best for proper integration of a 2.1 system. However, you need to calculate in also the cost of a microphone and microphone stand.
Why do you prefer the MiniDSP Flex balanced, which is more expensive than the RCA version? I also don't see XLR input in your Arendal.

Since TV is your source, it might be a good idea to wait for the Flex Home Theatre with HDMI input.

If you are concerned about adding streaming, go for the much cheaper Wiim mini. The Pro Plus does not have advantages if you don't need Chromecast and are going to use the DAC of the MiniDSP.

UMIK-1 is coming next week, so I that is no problem.
Balanced or single ended - looks like balanced is better. If I am changing system - I can switch now.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Antimode/DSPeaker products will also cover this. And apparently the new Eversolo DMP-A8