Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[ahofer]

I just rely on what I hear.

No, apparently not. You rely on what you see and already know, along with your hearing. It would be more interesting if your comparison were based only on listening. Blind tests are the purest form of 'trusting your ears'.

I trust more my ears than all of your arguments,

see above

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No, apparently not. You rely on what you see and already know, along with your hearing. It would be more interesting if your comparison were based only on listening. Blind tests are the purest form of 'trusting your ears'.

I'll go home and have my wife blindfold me.

 

[ahofer]

I'll go home and have my wife blindfold me.

Your next challenge will be level-matching - see the discussion above.

 

[oleg87]

Humm, I’m convinced: it will be impossible.

Yes, facetious evasions, vague handwaving about transient instability or whatever and allusions to trade secrets are about the only way I've seen these questions answered, even by engineers peddling DACs who ought to have the equipment and know-how to figure out what this magical X factor that evades a comprehensive measurement suite but creates clear audible differences is.

It's pretty easy to test for yourself what adding any kind of crap -80dB below music sounds like, and it's hard to find DACs that add distortion of any kind above this level. it's easy to test for yourself how much frequency response deviation registers as "more bass" to the ear. it's not quite so simple to test the audibility of phase distortion in the upper treble but it can be done.

 

[antcollinet]

so you suggest all dacs sound the same?..all chips sound the same?..that a dongle sounds the same as a desktop DAC etc?..come on

No, all dacs don't sound the same. Only the ones that perform so well that what comes out is audibly identical to the music encoded in the digital file.

Thing is - that is most of them.

You see, a DAC has one, and only one job, and that is to accurately convert the digital representation of music from the source into an analog representation of that music. Well measuring DACS do that with inaudible levels of noise and distortion, and with flat frequency response in the audible band. In other words the analogue output is (audibly) a perfect representation of the digitally encoded music.

If two DACS both achieve this (and well measuring DACS do) then the analog signal from both must be identical within audible limits. By definition, they must sound the same.

Or at least, assuming the amp and speakers are the same, will result in identical sound waves reaching the ear of the listener. What the listeners brain does with that sound information, and how it mixes in the environment, expectations of the listener, mood of the listener etc etc to "colour" the perception of that sound has nothing to do with the performance of the DAC.

 

[amper42]

All DACs that measure transparent (beyond audible thresholds which vary between individuals) will be indistinguishable in a blind test.

The phrase above is key. However, it's pretty common for even the same DAC to measure differently between USB and Toslink inputs or analog/XLR outputs. Plus, different DAC's offer different filters. Some filters sound amazingly close while others not so much. Add to that, some speakers have tweeters that easily reproduce DAC filter changes while others don't offer enough high frequency resolution.

It's easy to say all DACs sound the same. However, when correctly configured A/B tests of EVEN the same DAC switched between filters adds a slight variance in sound - you can see exceptions exist. These differences also show up in measurements. But you may or may not hear them based on your speakers, age and audio chain. Audio memory is quickly fleeting, so only trust audio differences that are detected immediately at the flip of a switch, from one configuration to the other.

What I'm hearing from long time ASR members is we don't believe there is a difference in the sound of transparent DACs. If you can't prove it with a proper blind test then we are not going to believe it. They are tired of unfounded claims where the switch between DAC sources is longer than human audio memory and want you to pass a blind test to prove your claim. They are actually trying to enlighten you.

Don't be surprised by the questioning posters that jump in. Probably best to simply convince yourself with a test with proper controls rather than try to convince this group. After all, you are the only one who has to listen to your audio system. Not them!

 

[DLS79]

The phrase above is key. However, it's pretty common for even the same DAC to measure differently between USB and Toslink inputs or analog/XLR outputs.

when you ABX testing you do like for like all the way through the chain, switching input and output types invalidates the test.

 

[antcollinet]

However, it's pretty common for even the same DAC to measure differently between USB and Toslink inputs or analog/XLR outputs

Maybe common for them to measure differently - but it is extremely un-common for those differences to be audible. So even when the input or output changes - the DAC still sounds the same - and the same as other transparent DACs.

However, when correctly configured A/B tests of EVEN the same DAC switched between filters

right - but when you switch to a filter that changes the sound - that DAC is no longer measuring as transparent. You are effectively using a filter that measurably reduces the performance of the DAC (It can be argued that filter is defective). So, no - this doesn't negate the premise of this thread.

 

[Blumlein 88]

You’ve discovered me, I’m an infiltrated member of “What’s Hi-Fi” in order to introduce chaos on science forums (sarcasm)

Only try to understand some audio differences I perceive in my gear apart from the psychological effect which I know well as is omnipresent in my profession (medicine rehabilitation).

As I mentioned above, I don’t believe in certainty about anything and found a possible way to measure my dacs discrepancy.

Actually I have not a lot of time, but since I have the two dacs and an audio interface, I will search for my own forms of verify s whole track difference when DA converted after passing both devices.

The only difficulty I find on the later method is the asynchrony of two different clocks, otherwise the subtraction of the generated files will be a new signal almost equal to each file but reflecting the different volume.

If I finally find the time and a friend who can do the analysis, I will share results.

No trolling, I trust more my ears than all of your arguments, you can call me irrational but that’s all.

Friend you are not listening. Deltawave corrects for clock difference so you don't need synced clocks. It corrects for level. It also corrects phase and frequency if you ask it to do so. So you can hear differences from phase and frequency caused by different filters compared to having that corrected.

You continue to look for unmeasurable reasons when you are not up to date on what can be measured.

 

[Blumlein 88]

You could use sine waves and your Scarlett to match levels then switch to music for a listening comparison.

 

[Miguelón]

Friend you are not listening. Deltawave corrects for clock difference so you don't need synced clocks. It corrects for level. It also corrects phase and frequency if you ask it to do so. So you can hear differences from phase and frequency caused by different filters compared to having that corrected.

You continue to look for unmeasurable reasons when you are not up to date on what can be measured.

I was finally convinced by the argument that if the DAC is audible transparent I will not hear the difference. Clearly, as you mentioned before, if some region of spectrum is enhanced it will be measured on the FQ test.

I’m still disgusted with some of my dacs, concretely the IFI ones, so I suppose that there is a problem with the filter selected by the brand or simply not transparent.

As the desktop DAC has a variable line out with a volume knob and the brand claims that it can serve as pre amp, maybe the problem is the implementation of the volume control or even the dac has a true pre amp stage with its own characteristics.

The other dac is a dongle with a headphone amp, so impossible to judge dac section alone.

Nevertheless, as I need a new dac with coax input I will search one on the Amir list.

Thanks for insisting in arguments, they will facilitate my choice on gear.

Also I abandoned hi-fi speakers some time ago precisely because the “sound signature” of amps and speakers, as in classical music we prefer stick as well as possible to the recording in order to don’t introduce artifacts on dynamics or loose instruments when listening orchestral music.

Obviously the room response is still a problem, but since I moved my ancient Bang Olufsen speakers to studio monitors my music sessions had improved a lot, and a lot is merely an euphemism about how enjoy listening now compared to years ago

 

[Lupin]

I know perfectly well what I'm paying for when buying a DX9. Topping's pricing policy implies a price/sound/functionality ratio. On the issue of warming up audio equipment, read for yourself on the Internet. I'm not a fan of wiretapping power cables, etc. but the new duck out of the box didn't play as well as it does now.

Come up with an actual scientific reference that supports your claim about the DX9.
I don't care about "the internet". We would be all Paul worshippers and buy $20K I2S cables because it makes the music sound so much better if "the internet" was proof enough to claim anything.

 

[antcollinet]

I’m still disgusted with some of my dacs, concretely the IFI ones, so I suppose that there is a problem with the filter selected by the brand or simply not transparent.

Or (and you still seem not to be getting this) your cognitive biases are getting in the way.


There've been a couple of Zen Dacs measured here, and while they don't have the best performance - at a SINAD of 85+ and 90+, they will still both be transparent for most people, as has been pointed out to you here before.

 

[Miguelón]

Or (and you still seem not to be getting this) your cognitive biases are getting in the way.


There've been a couple of Zen Dacs measured here, and while they don't have the best performance - at a SINAD of 85+ and 90+, they will still both be transparent for most people, as has been pointed out to you here before.

Maybe, at this point I’m beginning to have some doubts. But no matter the psychological question, I still need a coax input and want a remote, so probably go to topping D50 iii

 

[ads_cft222]

Why some people report that it sounds the same or they like it and others don’t like it regarding sonic impression of dacs or amps without doing any blind tests ? Are they not affected or affected differently on psychological level ? Maybe is the synergy with the rest of their system …

 

[Miguelón]

Why some people report that it sounds the same or they like it and others don’t like it regarding sonic impression of dacs or amps without doing any blind tests ? Are they not affected or affected differently on psychological level ? Maybe is the synergy with the rest of their system …

I don’t know, synergy only be affected by signal level. If one has a very weak output, forcing the amp at maximum gain may produce some noise or distortion.

Otherwise I’m now convinced by experts on the forum and some extra research on circuits behavior that if the dac has high SINAD and flat response is impossible to tell the difference.

My only non psychologically plausible answer is still:

-Different filters used (perfect anti aliasing filters don’t exist so one can expect some false images of ultrasonic frequencies on the audible region, so anti image filters are used with some slight differences on the very high region but still audible if you’re so young)

-Problems on the emitter usb output energy or file processing, I use normally Tidal on iphone 15 pro max or ipad air M1: both have usb standards but the volume is low if I don’t use the supplied power. Since the dac need some minimum energy in electronics components and the iPhone is limiting the output power to protect the battery, possibly can affect performances. Otherwise with my PC sound is better, or if I use a Belkin usb c charger and audio usb adapter that supplies power and charges the phone at same time.

 

[Apolloseylormoon]

Come up with an actual scientific reference that supports your claim about the DX9.
I don't care about "the internet". We would be all Paul worshippers and buy $20K I2S cables because it makes the music sound so much better if "the internet" was proof enough to claim anything.

It's funny) You doubt my statement and want me to prove something to you and find scientific grounds for you. Study the topics of capacitor forming, electrolyte training after storage, and similar topics, etc. Do you think that a new amplifier or DAC sounds the same as a warmed-up one? Well done, that's your business.

 

[Veri]

Study the topics of capacitor forming, electrolyte training after storage, and similar topics, etc.

Well ok, so you know a lot about this then, right? Can you link us to some reading material?
People here won't believe in mechanical "burn in" without any proof, it's ASR.

 

[Apolloseylormoon]

I think you will be able to prove the opposite perfectly well, using scientific research as an example) Study the topics of capacitor forming, electrolyte training after storage, and similar topics, etc. Do you think that a new amplifier sounds the same as a warmed-up one?

 

[Apolloseylormoon]

In any case, I'm not going to dissuade you and impose my opinion, demanding justifications from you, relax) everyone's hearing is different